Timeline for answer to How does the wording "for each" work? by ikegami
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| Jul 8, 2014 at 5:25 | comment | added | user1873 | 608.2g isn't about LKI, re-read it. Interestingly enough, 112.2c An object may have multiple abilities. If the object is represented by a card, then aside from certain defined abilities that may be strung together on a single line (see rule 702, “Keyword Abilities”), each paragraph break in a card’s text marks a separate ability. [...] And 603.2c An ability triggers only once each time its trigger event occurs. However, it can trigger repeatedly if one event contains multiple occurrences. [...] Might lead you astray Does it contain multiple occurrences because of "for each"? | |
| Jul 8, 2014 at 5:00 | comment | added | ikegami | @user1873, No, 608.2e is not about APNAP; it's about handling abilities with multiple steps or actions. It mentioned that each action is performed at once, which answers the OP's question. As for 608.2g, why do you bring up LKI again??? You've already agreed that LKI has nothing to do with the question! "getting an answer once if an effect requires it" doesn't help either. | |
| Jul 8, 2014 at 4:51 | comment | added | user1873 | I was suggesting that 608.2g (which talks of getting an answer once if an effect requires it) is a better example than your 608.2e reference that is about APNAP order when effects involve multiple players. | |
| Jul 8, 2014 at 4:11 | comment | added | ikegami | @user1873, Wall of Shards.... interesting. I'll have to bring this up at Wizard's Rules Q&A. | |
| Jul 8, 2014 at 4:08 | comment | added | ikegami | @user1873, I don't know what you're looking it, but 608.2 has nothing to do with APNAP. 608.2 explains how to resolve spells and abilities. | |
| Jul 8, 2014 at 4:06 | comment | added | ikegami | @user1873, I don't see how 700.1 helps. (wtf is a "happening"?) | |
| Jul 8, 2014 at 4:02 | comment | added | ikegami | @user1873, You had asked about a single effect with multiple verbs. I did mention Life Burst in my answer, which has two verbs, thus two effects, and thus two events | |
| Jul 8, 2014 at 3:08 | comment | added | ikegami | @user1873, 4) Re "Do you have an emample of a one-shot effect that uses multiple verbs and causes you gain life in two separate events?" Of course not. Each verb is an effect. Like I said, count the verbs. | |
| Jul 8, 2014 at 3:03 | comment | added | ikegami | @user1873, 3) Re "I don't buy the 'count your verbs' argument." Then give me a counterexample. I would be interested in what other kinds of words denotes the taking of actions. | |
| Jul 8, 2014 at 3:03 | comment | added | ikegami | @user1873, 2) Re "Then you might want to mention spells than deal with LKI due to zone changing, and needing to look back in time at the game-state before and after an effect." ???? I don't see how LKI has any relevance. | |
| Jul 8, 2014 at 3:03 | comment | added | ikegami | @user1873, 1) Re "Maybe quote the section in the CR that deals with effects", 608.2 is too large to quote. I quoted the subsection that's relevant to the answer. | |
| Jul 1, 2014 at 23:51 | history | edited | ikegami | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Jul 1, 2014 at 21:42 | comment | added | ikegami | @murgatroid99, Also, 118.9 wouldn't be necessary if "dealt damage" and "dealt damage by a source" were the same thing, because that would mean "gains life" and "gains life from a source" would already be the same thing. | |
| Jul 1, 2014 at 21:41 | comment | added | murgatroid99♦ | @ikegami OK, based on rulings I found, you're right about that one. | |
| Jul 1, 2014 at 21:35 | comment | added | ikegami | @murgatroid99, It's not in the rules that it doesn't do more than specified. As per the English definition, "is dealt damage" doesn't check who did it or how much they did. Source of rule interpretation: Previous discussions on Wizards' Rules Q&A forum. It can also be inferred from the presence of the two different wordings. | |
| Jul 1, 2014 at 21:29 | history | edited | ikegami | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Jul 1, 2014 at 21:27 | comment | added | murgatroid99♦ | @ikegami Now I think that all parts of your answer relevant to the question are correct, but what source do you have that simultaneous damage from multiple sources counts as a single damage event? | |
| Jul 1, 2014 at 21:23 | history | edited | ikegami | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Jul 1, 2014 at 21:14 | comment | added | ikegami | @murgatroid99, Gendolkari's math comment was in response to a paragraph I had in my answer I removed before he even made his comment because it didn't make things any clearer. | |
| Jul 1, 2014 at 21:13 | comment | added | murgatroid99♦ | @ikegami No, that's not what I meant. You said "that would be the case". I'm not sure if by "that" you mean "multiple life gain events" (as in the first section) or "only one life gain event" (as in the second section). Especially because the note is with the second section, but the correct answer is the first one (which I provided a rules reference for). | |
| Jul 1, 2014 at 21:11 | comment | added | ikegami | @GendoIkari, Yes, I did. I just gave a tip that you can count actions by counting verbs. | |
| Jul 1, 2014 at 21:00 | comment | added | murgatroid99♦ |
@GendoIkari I think the rule referenced is sufficient because it doesn't reference "verbs" but "separate sentences or clauses". "Gain 2 life for each creature you control" is a single verb clause, so by that rule all of the life gain "is processed simultaneously". And since it's a single source adding a certain amount of life simultaneously, it's a single event. And your point about a computer is irrelevant: I could just as easily write a program that specifies add 2*(number of creatures) as for creature in creatures: add 2.
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| Jul 1, 2014 at 19:51 | comment | added | GendoIkari | Note that a valid English and mathematical reading of "for each creature, gain a life" when there are 2 creatures is: "gain a life. Gain a life." This is how a computer would read and execute a program written that way. While I don't think that's the intent of the card or the rules, there is still not a rule defining "for each". | |
| Jul 1, 2014 at 19:49 | comment | added | GendoIkari | I don't think this answer helps clear up the ambiguity. You don't provide a rule for "count the verbs". The very question is in whether or not "for each" counts as having multiple verbs. | |
| Jul 1, 2014 at 19:48 | vote | accept | zo0x | ||
| Jul 1, 2014 at 19:06 | history | edited | ikegami | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Jul 1, 2014 at 18:22 | history | edited | ikegami | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Jul 1, 2014 at 18:16 | history | answered | ikegami | CC BY-SA 3.0 |