Timeline for answer to Do we want accepted answers unpinned on Math.SE? by Xander Henderson
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| when toggle format | what | by | license | comment | |
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| Jun 2, 2022 at 11:29 | comment | added | Kenn Sebesta | Downvoting because I disagree, not because I think that the answer is a bad one. | |
| Oct 8, 2021 at 23:28 | comment | added | Araucaria - him | @XanderHenderson However, now, late and helpful answers will be buried under a heap of mediocre answers, unread by hundreds of thousand users who might benefit from them. Mathematics is just about to banish thousands of its most helpful and useful posts to obscurity. The general quality of this site is about to substantially deteriorate. | |
| Oct 8, 2021 at 23:23 | comment | added | Araucaria - him | @XanderHenderson I agree wholeheartedly with your plea for civility. However the following is categorically not correct: "We are discussing whether or not the "accepted answer" should be displayed first, or if the most highly upvoted answer should be displayed first (assuming that these are not the same). I don't think that it is a huge deal in either direction In the current system, highly upvoted (often just early) answers appear under the accepted one. The accepted one is merely an inconvenience if inferior. (cont) | |
| Sep 29, 2021 at 12:34 | vote | accept | Martin R | ||
| Sep 22, 2021 at 6:14 | comment | added | user400188 | You might wonder what difference does it make, but people currently are unaware of what their votes are contributing too, and some may simply upvote it because it is a well reasoned argument (with premises they may still disagree with). (2 of 2) | |
| Sep 22, 2021 at 6:14 | comment | added | user400188 | I think you should remove the phrase "(Note: this is my opinion as a user; my moderator hat is off.)", since you use this post in Meta S.E, and speak as though you represent the MSE community through the votes given on this post. As a moderator of Math S.E., people will take your Meta S.E. post seriously, and thus I think it fair to remove the disclaimer at the start, and mention the cross post instead. (1 of 2) | |
| Sep 16, 2021 at 3:21 | comment | added | Mateen Ulhaq | There are times where a higher voted answer is not as intuitive as the accepted answer. In that way, the second answer acts as a more rigorous expansion upon the first, which gets the idea across. However, I think on average, sorting by votes has more benefit for future questions. | |
| Sep 14, 2021 at 14:41 | comment | added | Sarvesh Ravichandran Iyer | @XanderHenderson I accept that the choice is binary. In that case, I will vote in your favour, +1. | |
| Sep 14, 2021 at 12:46 | comment | added | Xander Henderson Mod | @TeresaLisbon It is fine to be frustrated by the binary nature of the choice, but there is nothing that can be done about that in this forum. If you want to make further suggestions, please join the conversation on the main meta (linked in the original post). (Or, indeed, ways of giving accepted answers more weight have already been suggested.) | |
| Sep 14, 2021 at 9:47 | comment | added | Sarvesh Ravichandran Iyer | @XanderHenderson I'll summarize : I hate the binary nature of the situation from the bottom of my heart (and I believe that the order of display of answers should , in Calvin's way ideally, reflect the OP's decision to pick the "best" answer), but I'll go with your decision based on your statistics. | |
| Sep 13, 2021 at 17:55 | comment | added | Xander Henderson Mod | Given the binary option which has been presented to us, my feeling is that the default option should be to list answers only by total vote score. If you feel that the binary choice is not good enough, e.g. you want to give the green check the power of $n$ upvotes, then please have this discussion in the main meta thread, where your suggestion has a chance of being heard. | |
| Sep 13, 2021 at 17:54 | comment | added | Xander Henderson Mod | I really don't understand a lot of the conversation happening here. We have a binary choice: either (1) sort answers by vote totals alone, or (2) sort answers by vote totals, but put the "accepted answer" on top. I don't see anyone arguing that the green check has zero value, or that we should ignore the green check. I don't see anyone arguing that the original asker should not be addressed (indeed, the green check indicates that their issue has been solved). This is really only a question of how the information is presented to future readers, by default. | |
| Sep 13, 2021 at 15:31 | comment | added | ryang | @Teresa I agree. Frequently, “in the particular, lies the universal” (James Joyce), and a customised Answer is more resonant than one that overlooks the OP to appeal to a general audience, whatever that means. We are after all addressing genuine Questions (which I find meaningful), and no one minds if an Answer goes into more details or generality than requested, or—if there already are multiple Answers—offers alternate perspectives. My position is to unpin, but not to to otherwise devalue, the Green Tick; eg., to give it priority over other Answers with the same vote-score. | |
| Sep 13, 2021 at 5:54 | comment | added | Sarvesh Ravichandran Iyer | I'm also on a bit of a fence regarding the "main goal" comment. When I write an answer I'd try to please OP because I think they are the "average" person coming to me with the question they have posed, and so presume that the audience that is reading the question is on average at the level of OP. I don't know how to write for the public, but I assume that OP is an "average" member of the public asking their question, and so write an answer as the OP wants it (and maybe for a population of higher understanding). Point being : OP's contribution should be valued more than this answer provides. | |
| Sep 13, 2021 at 5:48 | comment | added | Sarvesh Ravichandran Iyer | In my opinion, the main goal of an answer is to be able to write both for the OP, as well as for the general population. This is at least what I strive to do. I get the feeling that this suggestion completely disregards OPs opinion of the answers they received as null and void : yes, maybe the majoritarian questioner behaviour is of the kind mentioned, but I don't think the situation is so bad that we must bin the value of the green check mark. It should count : I'd go with what Calvin says ideally , but in a forced situation i.e. the binary, I'd agree with you. | |
| Sep 13, 2021 at 5:40 | comment | added | Sarvesh Ravichandran Iyer | @XanderHenderson The concern with the voting system you propose, as I see from what Contrakinta is saying, is that if people see that questions are ordered by votes, they will not necessarily want to write for the OP, but rather for the general audience (on occasions where they know that a general audience will appreciate their answer more than an OP e.g. with a generalization). This should not lead to the preferred objective of an answer being to address a general audience rather than the OP itself. We have to preserve both objectives, and I don't think disregarding the green check is correct | |
| Sep 11, 2021 at 14:24 | comment | added | ContraKinta | First of all, I have not called anyone stupid. I said Accusing the questioner of lacking the mathematical maturity to judge a good answer is stupid. You are putting words in my mouth. Secondly, stuff like "the main goal of the SE network is not to provide the questioner with an answer. " is really off putting. Especially if the end result is an incentive to write answers that will rather please the mathematically mature audience of registered regulars rather than helping the actual questioner and all the registered/unregistered people on his or her level of mathematical maturity. | |
| Sep 11, 2021 at 13:49 | comment | added | Xander Henderson Mod | Finally, because I reread the comment: the main goal of the SE network is not to provide the questioner with an answer. The main goal of the SE network is to connect questioners with answers (see here; search for the text "inverted pyramid" to get to the relevant bit). If an individual asker is helped, excellent! But helping future askers is even more important. Votes reflect how useful other readers have found an answer, including these important future askers. | |
| Sep 11, 2021 at 13:43 | comment | added | Xander Henderson Mod | I am also somewhat shocked at the level of vitriol on display here. We are talking about a site setting which would change the order in which answers are presented. We are not talking about closing questions, deleting content, or suspending accounts. We are discussing whether or not the "accepted answer" should be displayed first, or if the most highly upvoted answer should be displayed first (assuming that these are not the same). I don't think that it is a huge deal in either direction---perhaps we can continue the conversation with civility? | |
| Sep 11, 2021 at 13:38 | comment | added | Xander Henderson Mod | Responding to the substance of your comment: I do not think that the issue is that answerers are writing "mathematically mature answer that the questioner does not understand". Rather, I think that a lot of questions get (1) quick answers with a short computation that can be turned in as homework, and (2) longer answers which attempt to explain why something is true. The former is often accepted quickly because (1) it provides the asker with what they wanted (homework help), and (2) it came quickly. However, an answer which provides explanation is better for the site on the whole. | |
| Sep 11, 2021 at 13:36 | comment | added | Xander Henderson Mod | @ContraKinta I would invite you to adopt a more civil tone. Calling others "stupid" is a violation of the SE Code of Conduct. | |
| Sep 11, 2021 at 12:04 | comment | added | ContraKinta | When I first got here I was surprised and a bit annoyed this kind of atmosphere where people focus more on making the answer general than actually helping the person asking the question. Accusing the questioner of "lacking the mathematical maturity to judge a good answer" is just stupid. The main goal of an answer should be to provide the questioner with an answer they can understand and make use of. If you write a mathematically mature answer that the questioner does not understand YOU HAVE FAILED. | |
| Sep 10, 2021 at 22:14 | comment | added | Xander Henderson Mod | E.g. it has already been suggested that the green check be used as a tie-breaker. | |
| Sep 10, 2021 at 22:13 | comment | added | Xander Henderson Mod | @GerryMyerson I did not see your comment until now. My understanding is that, on a per-site basis, we have two options: (1) order posts strictly on the basis of net votes, or (2) order posts on the basis of net votes, but put accepted answers at the top. These are (or will be) the only options available network wide. A more nuanced discussion of how answers are ordered is not going to be fruitful here, as we don't have any per-site ability to change these settings. However, you might have a fruitful discussion of this on the main meta site. | |
| Sep 10, 2021 at 21:20 | comment | added | Jean-Claude Arbaut | I know that. And to me it's a burden. Votes on answers, why not. badges, why not. Reps? Only really useful to inlock site features. Besides, mathematical statements are not more correct because of the reputation of their author - and when I read maths, here or elsewhere, I don't care very much about the author's reputation, only the quality of what he has written. And I don't think I was arguing, but guess what, I'm not surprised. Once his fault, twice my fault, as they say. | |
| Sep 10, 2021 at 21:16 | comment | added | amWhy | I'm just saying that on SE, reputation, as a matter of fact, is directly related to the votes one receives on one's answers (albeit, not on CW posts). I never argued that they must be related, just that on this site, they are, de facto, interdependent. Interesting, because my question is precisely, why are you arguing? | |
| Sep 10, 2021 at 21:16 | comment | added | Jean-Claude Arbaut | @amWhy Note that all my answers >20 upvotes are community wiki. And I don't see how votes on a question are necessarily linked to user rep. It's a design choice, note a necessity. And FYI I am a public servant, in real life (I thought it was obvious enough that I didn't have to add that precision). But why are you really arguing, anyway? | |
| Sep 10, 2021 at 20:59 | comment | added | amWhy | @Jean-ClaudeArbaut Neither can you honestly claim to be "merely a servant to the community", else you'd choose Community Wiki for all your answers. | |
| Sep 10, 2021 at 20:53 | comment | added | amWhy | @Jean-ClaudeArbaut One problem with your thinking, that I see, that it is precisely "useful votes" that afford some more rep than others. And badges depend on net upvotes on an appropriate number of posts within a tag. So your dichotomy is not a dichotomy, sorry. | |
| Sep 9, 2021 at 14:15 | comment | added | Jean-Claude Arbaut | I agree. I would go further: voting is useful: the community decides which answer is best, in a rather democratic process (that's also debatable in maths, but it's better than the alternatives, on a web site). However, reputation points are not very useful: apart from the self esteem boost, they are only helpful in deciding if a user can be trusted or not. But actually reputation points tell nothing about the ability of the respondent on that particular subject (for instance, I may answer on numerical analysis or calculus, but I'm a noob in algebraic topology). The tag badges are more relevant | |
| Sep 9, 2021 at 13:46 | comment | added | Xander Henderson Mod | @Jean-ClaudeArbaut I am in a camp that doesn't see a lot of value in the green check. I think that it might have some value on a site like SO, where the original asker can say "Yup, the code works now and does the thing I want it to do", but I think it has much less value here. I have come to understand the green check as a "bounty" which the original asker as the privilege of awarding. It is an extra "thank you" from the post author, and has little significance beyond that. | |
| Sep 9, 2021 at 12:54 | comment | added | Jean-Claude Arbaut | @Nij That's the point, it's mainly helpful to those who will answer the OP to have a better idea of his level/expectations. However, if he has already selected an answer, the question is usually settled (not always). As I said, if the goal is to be helpful to has many readers as possible, there is no point in even requiring the OP to select an answer, as nobody cares. It's only relevant at the initial step (exchanges between the OP and current and future respondents). I tend to agree with this answer (and I did upvote). My point was that it's usually all about short term/long term viewpoint. | |
| Sep 9, 2021 at 12:36 | history | edited | Xander HendersonMod | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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| Sep 9, 2021 at 11:44 | comment | added | Nij | There's a major leap of logic from "acceptance is important feedback" to "accepted answers should always be on top". How does knowing a solution helped one specific user, make it most helpful to later readers? And if it has been accepted, it must have been read and used by the acceptor, meaning it doesn't need to be pinned at the top for them. So what therefore is the point of pinning any answer at all, much less on the basis of it being helpful to one specific person? | |
| Sep 9, 2021 at 9:39 | comment | added | Jean-Claude Arbaut | The caricatural description: is MSE a curated FAQ, where some questions don't deserved to be answered, and don't even deserved to stay here, or is it more a "let me help you" service, where no question is too dumb? I believe there are regular users out here on both sides of this, and anywhere in between. It's not really a secret that I'm more on the "let me help you" side, but it's my natural way of thinking, and I'm also a public servant. | |
| Sep 9, 2021 at 9:32 | comment | added | Jean-Claude Arbaut | It really depends on how the site is "perceived". If the goal is to have good questions and good answers useful to as many people as possible, then clearly it's better to sort by vote, and we don't even care that the OP has accepted an answer. If we try first to answer questions of people who have a problem, then accepting an answer is an important feedback, and it should always be the first answer. For instance, there are case where the most upvoted answers don't take into account some constraints in the question, yet they are very good answers with another approach, hence the votes. | |
| Sep 9, 2021 at 6:23 | comment | added | Gerry Myerson | How do you propose to break ties, Xander? | |
| Sep 9, 2021 at 1:13 | comment | added | Xander Henderson Mod | @JyrkiLahtonen There is definitely a "rich get richer" problem, but if there is any consistent presentation of answers, that is going to be a problem. Either the accepted answer accumulates extra votes because it is on top, or the already most-upvoted answer accumulates more votes. Hard to say what is right. | |
| Sep 8, 2021 at 23:16 | comment | added | amWhy | One reason I agree with this answer is that it helps a wee bit to de-incentivize the FGITW: (the fastest guns in the west), who manage to pounce to answer, and do so in a very short period of time (though often, they continue to edit... and edit, and...). And I think, in that sense, it may give merit to those who think carefully, take there time to craft a very good answer, and post,often with little need to edit. I actually think it helps level the "playing field" in terms of answering. | |
| Sep 8, 2021 at 21:02 | comment | added | Jyrki Lahtonen | On a fence about this. Your description is accurate in many cases, and that sorting works better than the current. Against that there are cases like my second highest voted answer. It has more votes than the accepted answer, but it is building upon it. I just wanted to explain the observed phenomena a bit more, and the voters liked it better. Yet, the frequencies are probably on your side. My answer does refer to the accepted answer, so the readers should not be mislead too much, if their order is changed. | |
| Sep 8, 2021 at 20:44 | comment | added | Xander Henderson Mod | (This is here as an answer rather than a comment so that it can attract both upvotes and downvotes.) | |
| Sep 8, 2021 at 20:44 | history | answered | Xander HendersonMod | CC BY-SA 4.0 |