Skip to main content
a minor typo
Source Link
Martin Sleziak
  • 4.8k
  • 4
  • 39
  • 42

As Pete Clark says,

"In general, I think "Why do people worry about X?" is primarily psychological. I can (and alas, do) worry about the correctness of my proofs for lots of reasons...but fundamentally I am worried about myself and not about some mathematical object or principle."

Let me explain why I worry about the axiom of choice and, generally, about non-constructive methods in mathematics. One of the fascinating aspects of mathematical activity is that it produces results that can transcend our life, like the Pythagorean theorem or Newton's binomial formula.

Many concepts of (formalized) mathematics evolved as ideal models of concrete things: some functions can model the movement of a particle, Turing machines model something following an algorithm, etc.. Although the relationship between the abstract, formal concept and the "real" thing is sometimes loose, it is a historical fact that the concepts were devised as models of such concrete things.

Mathematical theorems proved in a constructive way generally have a close connection to algorithmic processes that can possibly be relevant for humans of all times. But for example, the axiom of choice establishes a similarity between finite and infinite sets (which are qualitatively different, for example, no finite set is bijective to a proper subset) that is difficult to justify from an objective point of view. It states that infinite products of nonempty sets are nonempty. As far as I see, there isn't an objective argument to prefer the axiom of choice to it's negation. Future generations of mathematicians could possibly negate it (or more probably, live it undecidable) and a lot of parts of twentieth century mathematics would cease being theorems.

However, it seems less likely that a future mathematical language would cease providing concepts that mimick, for example, automata.

Note: The undecidability of the axiom of choice in ZF theory is still a metatheorem, so if a ZF statement can be proved false using AC, then it is (meta) clearly not a theorem. So the axiom of choice could still be useful for studying ZF, as a tool to produce counterexamples that limit our theorem-proving pretensions, but with the same formal status as, say, its negation.

Also note: I see that this answer is not part of math if math is understood as the study of the consequences of the ZFC axioms, and also it doesn't deal with the specific questions, but I hope that it explains why (some) people worry and fuss about the axiom of choice. It may be relevant, for example, for math professors, that could atractattract a wider audience by presenting a more secular version of mathematics that excludes the axiom of choice from the set-theoretic formalism. Independently of whether they use it or not in their own work.

As Pete Clark says,

"In general, I think "Why do people worry about X?" is primarily psychological. I can (and alas, do) worry about the correctness of my proofs for lots of reasons...but fundamentally I am worried about myself and not about some mathematical object or principle."

Let me explain why I worry about the axiom of choice and, generally, about non-constructive methods in mathematics. One of the fascinating aspects of mathematical activity is that it produces results that can transcend our life, like the Pythagorean theorem or Newton's binomial formula.

Many concepts of (formalized) mathematics evolved as ideal models of concrete things: some functions can model the movement of a particle, Turing machines model something following an algorithm, etc.. Although the relationship between the abstract, formal concept and the "real" thing is sometimes loose, it is a historical fact that the concepts were devised as models of such concrete things.

Mathematical theorems proved in a constructive way generally have a close connection to algorithmic processes that can possibly be relevant for humans of all times. But for example, the axiom of choice establishes a similarity between finite and infinite sets (which are qualitatively different, for example, no finite set is bijective to a proper subset) that is difficult to justify from an objective point of view. It states that infinite products of nonempty sets are nonempty. As far as I see, there isn't an objective argument to prefer the axiom of choice to it's negation. Future generations of mathematicians could possibly negate it (or more probably, live it undecidable) and a lot of parts of twentieth century mathematics would cease being theorems.

However, it seems less likely that a future mathematical language would cease providing concepts that mimick, for example, automata.

Note: The undecidability of the axiom of choice in ZF theory is still a metatheorem, so if a ZF statement can be proved false using AC, then it is (meta) clearly not a theorem. So the axiom of choice could still be useful for studying ZF, as a tool to produce counterexamples that limit our theorem-proving pretensions, but with the same formal status as, say, its negation.

Also note: I see that this answer is not part of math if math is understood as the study of the consequences of the ZFC axioms, and also it doesn't deal with the specific questions, but I hope that it explains why (some) people worry and fuss about the axiom of choice. It may be relevant, for example, for math professors, that could atract a wider audience by presenting a more secular version of mathematics that excludes the axiom of choice from the set-theoretic formalism. Independently of whether they use it or not in their own work.

As Pete Clark says,

"In general, I think "Why do people worry about X?" is primarily psychological. I can (and alas, do) worry about the correctness of my proofs for lots of reasons...but fundamentally I am worried about myself and not about some mathematical object or principle."

Let me explain why I worry about the axiom of choice and, generally, about non-constructive methods in mathematics. One of the fascinating aspects of mathematical activity is that it produces results that can transcend our life, like the Pythagorean theorem or Newton's binomial formula.

Many concepts of (formalized) mathematics evolved as ideal models of concrete things: some functions can model the movement of a particle, Turing machines model something following an algorithm, etc.. Although the relationship between the abstract, formal concept and the "real" thing is sometimes loose, it is a historical fact that the concepts were devised as models of such concrete things.

Mathematical theorems proved in a constructive way generally have a close connection to algorithmic processes that can possibly be relevant for humans of all times. But for example, the axiom of choice establishes a similarity between finite and infinite sets (which are qualitatively different, for example, no finite set is bijective to a proper subset) that is difficult to justify from an objective point of view. It states that infinite products of nonempty sets are nonempty. As far as I see, there isn't an objective argument to prefer the axiom of choice to it's negation. Future generations of mathematicians could possibly negate it (or more probably, live it undecidable) and a lot of parts of twentieth century mathematics would cease being theorems.

However, it seems less likely that a future mathematical language would cease providing concepts that mimick, for example, automata.

Note: The undecidability of the axiom of choice in ZF theory is still a metatheorem, so if a ZF statement can be proved false using AC, then it is (meta) clearly not a theorem. So the axiom of choice could still be useful for studying ZF, as a tool to produce counterexamples that limit our theorem-proving pretensions, but with the same formal status as, say, its negation.

Also note: I see that this answer is not part of math if math is understood as the study of the consequences of the ZFC axioms, and also it doesn't deal with the specific questions, but I hope that it explains why (some) people worry and fuss about the axiom of choice. It may be relevant, for example, for math professors, that could attract a wider audience by presenting a more secular version of mathematics that excludes the axiom of choice from the set-theoretic formalism. Independently of whether they use it or not in their own work.

Post Made Community Wiki by Todd Trimble
added 2 characters in body
Source Link

As Pete Clark says,

"In general, I think "Why do people worry about X?" is primarily psychological. I can (and alas, do) worry about the correctness of my proofs for lots of reasons...but fundamentally I am worried about myself and not about some mathematical object or principle."

Let me explain why I worry about the axiom of choice and, generally, about non-constructive methods in mathematics. One of the fascinating aspects of mathematical activity is that it produces results that can trascendtranscend our life, like the Pythagorean theorem or Newton's binomial formula.

Many concepts of (formalized) mathematics evolved as ideal models of concrete things: some functions can model the movement of a particle, Turing machines model something following an algorithm, etc.. AlthoughtAlthough the relationship between the abstract, formal concept and the "real" thing is sometimes loose, it is a historical fact that the concepts were devised as models of such concrete things.

Mathematical theorems proved in a constructive way generally have a close connection to algorithmic processes that can possibly be relevant for humans of all times. But for example, the axiom of choice establishes a similarity between finite and infinite sets (which are qualitatively different, for example, no finite set is bijective to a propertproper subset) that is difficult to justify from an objective point of view. It states that infinite products of nonempty sets are nonempty. As far as I see, there isn't an objective argument to prefer the axiom of choice to it's negation. Future generations of mathematicians could possibly negate it (or more probably, live it undecidable) and a lot of parts of twentieth century mathematics would cease being theorems.

However, it seems less likely that a future mathematical language would cease providing concepts that mimick, for example, automata.

Note: The indecidabilityundecidability of the axiom of choice in ZF theory is still a metatheorem, so if a ZF statement can be proved false using AC, then it is (meta) clearly not a theorem. So the axiom of choice could still be useful for studying ZF, as a tool to produce counterexamples that limit our theorem-proving pretensions, but with the same formal status as, say, its negation.

Also note: I see that this answer is not part of math if math is understood as the study of the consequences of the ZFC axioms, and also it doesn't deal with the specific questions, but I hope that it explains why (some) people worry and fuss about the axiom of choice. It may be relevant, for example, for math professors, that could atract a wider audience by presenting a more secular version of mathematics that excludes the axiom of choice from the set-theoretic formalism. IndepentlyIndependently of weatherwhether they use it or not in their own work.

As Pete Clark says,

"In general, I think "Why do people worry about X?" is primarily psychological. I can (and alas, do) worry about the correctness of my proofs for lots of reasons...but fundamentally I am worried about myself and not about some mathematical object or principle."

Let me explain why I worry about the axiom of choice and, generally, about non-constructive methods in mathematics. One of the fascinating aspects of mathematical activity is that it produces results that can trascend our life, like the Pythagorean theorem or Newton's binomial formula.

Many concepts of (formalized) mathematics evolved as ideal models of concrete things: some functions can model the movement of a particle, Turing machines model something following an algorithm, etc.. Althought the relationship between the abstract, formal concept and the "real" thing is sometimes loose, it is a historical fact that the concepts were devised as models of such concrete things.

Mathematical theorems proved in a constructive way generally have a close connection to algorithmic processes that can possibly be relevant for humans of all times. But for example, the axiom of choice establishes a similarity between finite and infinite sets (which are qualitatively different, for example, no finite set is bijective to a propert subset) that is difficult to justify from an objective point of view. It states that infinite products of nonempty sets are nonempty. As far as I see, there isn't an objective argument to prefer the axiom of choice to it's negation. Future generations of mathematicians could possibly negate it (or more probably, live it undecidable) and a lot of parts of twentieth century mathematics would cease being theorems.

However, it seems less likely that a future mathematical language would cease providing concepts that mimick, for example, automata.

Note: The indecidability of the axiom of choice in ZF theory is still a metatheorem, so if a ZF statement can be proved false using AC, then it is (meta) clearly not a theorem. So the axiom of choice could still be useful for studying ZF, as a tool to produce counterexamples that limit our theorem-proving pretensions, but with the same formal status as, say, its negation.

Also note: I see that this answer is not part of math if math is understood as the study of the consequences of the ZFC axioms, and also it doesn't deal with the specific questions, but I hope that it explains why (some) people worry and fuss about the axiom of choice. It may be relevant, for example, for math professors, that could atract a wider audience by presenting a more secular version of mathematics that excludes the axiom of choice from the set-theoretic formalism. Indepently of weather they use it or not in their own work.

As Pete Clark says,

"In general, I think "Why do people worry about X?" is primarily psychological. I can (and alas, do) worry about the correctness of my proofs for lots of reasons...but fundamentally I am worried about myself and not about some mathematical object or principle."

Let me explain why I worry about the axiom of choice and, generally, about non-constructive methods in mathematics. One of the fascinating aspects of mathematical activity is that it produces results that can transcend our life, like the Pythagorean theorem or Newton's binomial formula.

Many concepts of (formalized) mathematics evolved as ideal models of concrete things: some functions can model the movement of a particle, Turing machines model something following an algorithm, etc.. Although the relationship between the abstract, formal concept and the "real" thing is sometimes loose, it is a historical fact that the concepts were devised as models of such concrete things.

Mathematical theorems proved in a constructive way generally have a close connection to algorithmic processes that can possibly be relevant for humans of all times. But for example, the axiom of choice establishes a similarity between finite and infinite sets (which are qualitatively different, for example, no finite set is bijective to a proper subset) that is difficult to justify from an objective point of view. It states that infinite products of nonempty sets are nonempty. As far as I see, there isn't an objective argument to prefer the axiom of choice to it's negation. Future generations of mathematicians could possibly negate it (or more probably, live it undecidable) and a lot of parts of twentieth century mathematics would cease being theorems.

However, it seems less likely that a future mathematical language would cease providing concepts that mimick, for example, automata.

Note: The undecidability of the axiom of choice in ZF theory is still a metatheorem, so if a ZF statement can be proved false using AC, then it is (meta) clearly not a theorem. So the axiom of choice could still be useful for studying ZF, as a tool to produce counterexamples that limit our theorem-proving pretensions, but with the same formal status as, say, its negation.

Also note: I see that this answer is not part of math if math is understood as the study of the consequences of the ZFC axioms, and also it doesn't deal with the specific questions, but I hope that it explains why (some) people worry and fuss about the axiom of choice. It may be relevant, for example, for math professors, that could atract a wider audience by presenting a more secular version of mathematics that excludes the axiom of choice from the set-theoretic formalism. Independently of whether they use it or not in their own work.

edited body
Source Link

As Pete Clark says,

"In general, I think "Why do people worry about X?" is primarily psychological. I can (and alas, do) worry about the correctness of my proofs for lots of reasons...but fundamentally I am worried about myself and not about some mathematical object or principle."

Let me explain why I worry about the axiom of choice and, generally, about non-constructive methods in mathematics. One of the fascinating aspects of mathematical activity is that it produces results that can trascend our life, like the Pythagorean theorem or Newton's binomial formula.

Many concepts of (formalized) mathematics evolved as ideal models of concrete things: some functions can model the movement of a particle, Turing machines model something following an algorithm, etc.. Althought the relationship between the abstract, formal concept and the "real" thing is sometimes loose, it is a historical fact that the concepts were devised as models of such concrete things.

Mathematical theorems proved in a constructive way generally have a close connection to algorithmic processes that can possibly be relevant for humans of all times. But for example, the axiom of choice establishes a similarity between finite and infinite sets (which are qualitatively different, for example, no finite set is bijective to a propert subset) that is difficult to justify from an objective point of view. It states that infinite products of nonempty sets are nonempty. As far as I see, there isn't an objective argument to prefer the axiom of choice to it's negation. Future generations of mathematicians could possibly negate it (or more provablyprobably, live it undecidable) and a lot of parts of twentieth century mathematics would cease being theorems.

However, it seems less likely that a future mathematical language would cease providing concepts that mimick, for example, automata.

Note: The indecidability of the axiom of choice in ZF theory is still a metatheorem, so if a ZF statement can be proved false using AC, then it is (meta) clearly not a theorem. So the axiom of choice could still be useful for studying ZF, as a tool to produce counterexamples that limit our theorem-proving pretensions, but with the same formal status as, say, its negation.

Also note: I see that this answer is not part of math if math is understood as the study of the consequences of the ZFC axioms, and also it doesn't deal with the specific questions, but I hope that it explains why (some) people worry and fuss about the axiom of choice. It may be relevant, for example, for math professors, that could atract a wider audience by presenting a more secular version of mathematics that excludes the axiom of choice from the set-theoretic formalism. Indepently of weather they use it or not in their own work.

As Pete Clark says,

"In general, I think "Why do people worry about X?" is primarily psychological. I can (and alas, do) worry about the correctness of my proofs for lots of reasons...but fundamentally I am worried about myself and not about some mathematical object or principle."

Let me explain why I worry about the axiom of choice and, generally, about non-constructive methods in mathematics. One of the fascinating aspects of mathematical activity is that it produces results that can trascend our life, like the Pythagorean theorem or Newton's binomial formula.

Many concepts of (formalized) mathematics evolved as ideal models of concrete things: some functions can model the movement of a particle, Turing machines model something following an algorithm, etc.. Althought the relationship between the abstract, formal concept and the "real" thing is sometimes loose, it is a historical fact that the concepts were devised as models of such concrete things.

Mathematical theorems proved in a constructive way generally have a close connection to algorithmic processes that can possibly be relevant for humans of all times. But for example, the axiom of choice establishes a similarity between finite and infinite sets (which are qualitatively different, for example, no finite set is bijective to a propert subset) that is difficult to justify from an objective point of view. It states that infinite products of nonempty sets are nonempty. As far as I see, there isn't an objective argument to prefer the axiom of choice to it's negation. Future generations of mathematicians could possibly negate it (or more provably, live it undecidable) and a lot of parts of twentieth century mathematics would cease being theorems.

However, it seems less likely that a future mathematical language would cease providing concepts that mimick, for example, automata.

Note: The indecidability of the axiom of choice in ZF theory is still a metatheorem, so if a ZF statement can be proved false using AC, then it is (meta) clearly not a theorem. So the axiom of choice could still be useful for studying ZF, as a tool to produce counterexamples that limit our theorem-proving pretensions, but with the same formal status as, say, its negation.

Also note: I see that this answer is not part of math if math is understood as the study of the consequences of the ZFC axioms, and also it doesn't deal with the specific questions, but I hope that it explains why (some) people worry and fuss about the axiom of choice. It may be relevant, for example, for math professors, that could atract a wider audience by presenting a more secular version of mathematics that excludes the axiom of choice from the set-theoretic formalism. Indepently of weather they use it or not in their own work.

As Pete Clark says,

"In general, I think "Why do people worry about X?" is primarily psychological. I can (and alas, do) worry about the correctness of my proofs for lots of reasons...but fundamentally I am worried about myself and not about some mathematical object or principle."

Let me explain why I worry about the axiom of choice and, generally, about non-constructive methods in mathematics. One of the fascinating aspects of mathematical activity is that it produces results that can trascend our life, like the Pythagorean theorem or Newton's binomial formula.

Many concepts of (formalized) mathematics evolved as ideal models of concrete things: some functions can model the movement of a particle, Turing machines model something following an algorithm, etc.. Althought the relationship between the abstract, formal concept and the "real" thing is sometimes loose, it is a historical fact that the concepts were devised as models of such concrete things.

Mathematical theorems proved in a constructive way generally have a close connection to algorithmic processes that can possibly be relevant for humans of all times. But for example, the axiom of choice establishes a similarity between finite and infinite sets (which are qualitatively different, for example, no finite set is bijective to a propert subset) that is difficult to justify from an objective point of view. It states that infinite products of nonempty sets are nonempty. As far as I see, there isn't an objective argument to prefer the axiom of choice to it's negation. Future generations of mathematicians could possibly negate it (or more probably, live it undecidable) and a lot of parts of twentieth century mathematics would cease being theorems.

However, it seems less likely that a future mathematical language would cease providing concepts that mimick, for example, automata.

Note: The indecidability of the axiom of choice in ZF theory is still a metatheorem, so if a ZF statement can be proved false using AC, then it is (meta) clearly not a theorem. So the axiom of choice could still be useful for studying ZF, as a tool to produce counterexamples that limit our theorem-proving pretensions, but with the same formal status as, say, its negation.

Also note: I see that this answer is not part of math if math is understood as the study of the consequences of the ZFC axioms, and also it doesn't deal with the specific questions, but I hope that it explains why (some) people worry and fuss about the axiom of choice. It may be relevant, for example, for math professors, that could atract a wider audience by presenting a more secular version of mathematics that excludes the axiom of choice from the set-theoretic formalism. Indepently of weather they use it or not in their own work.

Source Link
Loading