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Last week in the beta announcement, we mentioned that we had a desire to move away from question closure as a primary curation tool. While closure was an effective tool to manage higher volume in the past, we believe it is now a significant cause of friction to authors and curators. We won’t rehash it too much. We think the argument we made in our modernizing curation proposal covers it well enough.

Proposed Shifts in Curation

We want to take each close reason and move it towards a curation workflow that fits in more reasonably with Stack Overflow today. We want to differentiate “this content doesn’t belong on Stack Overflow” from “this isn’t a question I am interested in,” which is different from “this is high-quality content that is worth promoting”. We want tooling that lets those signals exist independently, and we want curator input on what that actually looks like in practice.

Treat the below ideas as thought exercises rather than what we are married to and plan to implement. In addition, we would also be adjusting review queues to work alongside these flows depending on what changes. Here is our current thinking with each of these:

Needs more focus / low quality

Goal: We want to decouple quality signaling from the asker’s ability to receive an answer. We want to create more space to ask questions that may not be perfectly formed on their first attempt.

Idea: We are thinking about structured downvote reasons. Preset categories that provide context beyond a negative score. We are looking to adapt the successful feedback mechanisms from the Staging Ground to work at the scale of the main site.

Curator Experience: To prevent “review fatigue” we want to think about different viewing modes. Curators could toggle between seeing questions that have not received any feedback or hiding questions that have already been addressed by other curators. This would lead to the question eventually being deleted if no efforts were ever made to improve it by the author.

Opinion-based

Goal: We recognize that well-formed, opinion-based questions have value, but we also know that not everyone cares for them. Our goal is to make this content opt-in/out based on individual preference.

Idea: There could be a classification layer using categories using question types like “Tooling Recommendation,” “how do I,” or “implementation guidance." These would allow users to ignore, follow, etc., just like other tags, and only see content that they are interested in.

Curator Experience: Rather than voting to close, curators could instead have the ability to reclassify the posts. This could mimic the workflow of changing tags on a post that we already have.

Duplicates

Goal:

We want to prevent the “hard lock” failure mode where questions are closed against a “duplicate” that may not actually solve the asker’s specific problem.

Idea: Instead of just putting a post notice on a duplicate question, we would also offer a curation flow where one or more of the canonical duplicate’s answers would appear directly on the duplicate question, with added context if needed. Then the asker would still have the opportunity to accept the proposed duplicate answer or leave context explaining why it doesn’t answer their question. We would also want to think of a feedback loop for the question author to accept that proposed duplicate answer before the question is locked to new answers.

Curator Experience: This creates a much stronger feedback signal. Rather than wondering if your duplicate suggestion was helpful, you receive a clear data point. If an author does not accept the proposed answer, it signals to curators that the question may have a unique nuance that requests a new distinct answer.

Off-topic

Goal: Maintain Stack Overflow’s focus on programming without making “Off-Topic” feel like a shut door for users with legitimate technical questions that may belong elsewhere.

Idea: Our long-term vision is smarter backend routing. A system that identifies where a question would be best suited, whether that be adding certain tags or considering other Stack Exchange sites. In the near term, we are consolidating off-topic flags into the existing flag workflow. This reduces the number of clicks and menus you have to navigate and removes the friction and redundancy currently found in the off-topic sub-menus.

Curator Experience: Curators would be able to monitor this system and implement mechanisms to better fine-tune the decision-making process. When necessary, they would also be able to intervene in the event of something being routed somewhere incorrectly.

Next Steps

We are early in the development life cycle with these changes, and we're actively looking for experienced community members to pressure-test these ideas in a workshop type of way with the product manager and designer that has been working on close reasons. If you want to be involved in shaping the tooling, please let us know on this post, and we will follow up with you.

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    "We are early in the development life cycle with these changes" So once again, you don't care what we have to say and you are going to do what you want anyway. Why should we bother giving you any feedback? Commented 2 days ago
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    “Then the asker would still have the opportunity to accept the proposed duplicate answer or leave context explaining why it doesn’t answer their question.” - Most authors don’t know enough about the subject they are asking to determine if an existing an answer actually answers their question, and it rarely will, because their question is about “red licorice” instead of “black licorice” even if you eat both one bite at a time. Commented 2 days ago
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    "this isn’t a question I am interested in" - Closure was never about not being interested in some particular questions. Commented 2 days ago
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    "Needs more focus / low quality" theses are completely different things; the former is a reason to close while the latter a reason to downvote. We don't close because it's low quality content. Sure many questions that are low quality are closed, but the reason isn't "low quality".Perhaps you've confused "low quality" with "unclear"? Commented 2 days ago
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    I am shocked how this muddles together close votes and down votes and completely unrelated things. And somehow seems to miss why we close questions. And somehow seems to completely forget that we have edit and reopen workflows to recover closed questions. Well, no, actually I am not shocked, considering recent events... Commented 2 days ago
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    "We want to decouple quality signaling from the asker’s ability to receive an answer." Except when a question is unclear, it can't be answered reliably by definition, which is the whole point of closing those questions. Unless your goal is to encourage guessing? That's more engagement I guess, so it fits with everything else <s>Prosus</s>Stack Exchange has been doing lately. Commented 2 days ago
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    "this isn’t a question I am interested in" If a user is not interested in a question they won't open it, or simply close the page after reading it. They may also downvote it after reading, but they definitely should not vote to close. Using that as a reason to close a question is an abuse of their close voting privileges and could result in a warning from the mods. Commented 2 days ago
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    My biggest problem is probably with omnibus canonicals being used as a duplicate closure. Which of the 50+ answers will be useful to the asker? Point it out to the asker. If the question is too unclear to point it out, vote to close as unclear. It's <expletive deleted>ing stupid to tell someone with an unclear question that "Your answer is in here. Somewhere. Go dig." Commented 2 days ago
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    "curation (work)flow"... So you're rewriting the tools we do have to be infinitely less effective, basically ignoring all historical requests to improve those, and instead, you're building more curation work for a community that has clearly expressed they do not want this. SE is beyond out of touch. This is absolutely ridiculous. Commented 2 days ago
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    @Hoid you did present an argument for this in your previous post, and it received 27 considered answers that countered it from numerous angles (and sits at a negative total score). Making an argument and winning an argument are two different things, just as asking for feedback and then actually integrating that feedback into the work undertaken are. Commented 2 days ago
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    This post reminds me a lot of the Chesterton's Fence parable. It's not your fault, but you have a community full of people that are here that were around when this whole thing started, and can explain (rather well) why things are the way they are. At the very least this post conflates the reasons for downvotes vs. close votes, and there's no indication from the writing that you or the folks that currently work at SO understand that you've conflated these things. Commented 2 days ago
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    @Hoid "These are just starting points for people to think about. Feedback is welcome" - as expressed implicitly throught the question score and explicitly in multiple highly upvoted answers, the overwhelming community feedback is that whoever wrote this failed to understand how SO works (e.g. because it conflates downvotes, closevotes, and "interest"). The only reasonable way to act upon that feedback would be to retract the post, apologize to the community, pledge to properly educate the responsible staff, and come up with a better proposal afterwards. I won't be holding my breath... Commented yesterday
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    I can't even be arsed to post a reply. Just some advice: what makes you think you will pull off this much harder project when literally every other project started in the past 2 years has become a complete fiasco and left abandoned unfinished? Discussions/opinion-based, threaded comments, AI prompt, the godawful editor, the graphic destruction project and so on and so on. Non-profit abandonware that nobody will ever use isn't a viable business model so you will be forced to stop doing these projects eventually. Coming up with new ideas how to change the site was never the problem. Commented yesterday
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    "Goal: We want to decouple quality signaling from the asker’s ability to receive an answer. We want to create more space to ask questions that may not be perfectly formed on their first attempt." - I.e. you want to rid Stack Overflow of its defining feature that set it apart from forums and made it one of the most valuable online resources for many years - that the primary goal of any question should be to contribute to a high-quality knowledge base and that getting your personal problem solved is a secondary goal. I'm beyond frustrated. Commented yesterday
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    "this isn’t a question I am interested in" this raise a question: does SO have anyone who understand how this site works? I don't want to sound like Karen, but can we speak with your manager? Commented yesterday

21 Answers 21

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Why do you conflate downvotes and question closure? These are two different mechanisms with totally different purpose!

Downvotes are a way of ranking content. It is a signal to other viewers whether the question is worth opening and reading.

Question closure is a way of telling the asker that their question cannot or should not be answered on this site. They need to make a significant edit before they can receive good answers.

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    It's worth noting that neither is possible; while you can downvote the question in the current model, the score isn't shown. Let's not be YouTube, and simply not show the downvotes, because seeing something "negative" is seen as "being mean". We are adults; we can handle being told something is not well-received. Commented 2 days ago
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    @SecurityHound 16 years in the EU, 13 years elsewhere. Fortunately age has little to do with this matter. Commented 2 days ago
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    We are adults; we can handle being told something is not well-received. No reason to not strive for this goal, but unfortunately history has proven this false too often. Commented 2 days ago
  • @AndrasDeak--СлаваУкраїні - 13 is a minor in the US and for the purposes of a SE account not allowed. Commented 2 days ago
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    @SecurityHound no, as explained in the link Andras gave, the minimum age for an SE account is 13 everywhere except the EU where it is 16. The US included. Commented yesterday
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    @AndrasDeak--СлаваУкраїні That’s not the point. Even people 13-18 on this site are expected to act like adults Commented yesterday
  • @terdon - That is disturbing to hear. I am fairly sure that the US has laws that prevent minors (13-year-olds) from having such accounts. Commented yesterday
  • @Starship I disagree with your take as well, but anyway the original claim was "we are adults". We clearly aren't. Commented yesterday
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    @SecurityHound COPPA has the 13 year limit. Commented yesterday
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    @AndrasDeak--СлаваУкраїні Factually, there are no different expectations or policies for users 13-18 vs 18+, except that those under 18 can’t be mods Commented yesterday
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    @Starship correct. You could even say that "age has little to do with this matter". Commented yesterday
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Last week in the beta announcement, we mentioned that we had a desire to move away from question closure as a primary curation tool.

Yes, you did. You subsequently ignored all feedback, then posted this.

It's clear SE does not care about the community. Curation is seen as a hostile hindrance, to be shoved away into a corner. It's clear SE has made up its mind. It's clear this is only being posted so SE can tell their shareholders that they "communicated" with the community, while trying to keep this sinking ship afloat.

A plan so completely out of touch with how the website actually functions, I wonder if anyone involved has ever asked a question on SO, or touched the review queues.

Needs more focus / low quality

So these closure reasons no longer block answers? Sure, let's open the floodgates. Who cares what the quality of the question is? At least they've got a chance to receive an answer, right? The value of SO isn't in getting a quick answer at all costs. It's repository of knowledge SE seems to be determined to turn into a heap of trash users will have to wade through.

Structured downvote reasons

SO has always been strictly against attaching reasons to downvotes.
How does SE expect this to function? People don't downvote nearly as much as they should already, so don't tell me it's going to be some kind of mandatory option you need to pick if you want to apply a downvote. That's horrendous UX and will kill any incentive to vote.

If that is how it works, do the same for upvotes. If downvotes require a reason, upvotes should be treated the exact same way. Don't just hobble downvotes because they're "unwelcoming".
Low quality content, that is unwelcoming.

Different viewing modes.

What possible incentive would users have to continue curating?

Opinion based

Again, SE seems just to want to open the floodgates. More content does not equal value. It's trash to be sifted through.

Duplicates "We would also offer a curation flow"

Sure. Burden burnt-out curators with more ineffective work. Automatically importing a dupe target's answers is incredibly unreliable. More often than not, dupe targets' answers aren't exact answers to the duplicate question, and require the context of the dupe target's question. Duplicate targets often ask and answer the same concept, but can not be taken out of context.

The problem with duplicate closure is that users just want an exact, tailored answer. They're lazy. They don't want to learn. They want to be served.

Off-topic

SE is way too large to allow any form of automatic migration / linking to other SE sites. These SE sites all require specific domain knowledge, and more often than not, these migrations already do not stick, becasue the question itself is just bad.

Next steps We are early in the development life cycle

Well that's just grand.

SE made a plan to completely upend their website. They pretend to take feedback, but it's painstakingly obvious SE isn't here for feedback.

This is just an announcement that it's going to happen, regardless of what the community thinks.


Frankly, I can't wrap my head around how completely out of touch this whole process is.

  • A superfluous redesign that blindly applies the latest design fad.
  • Curation being upended in a desperate attempt to hold on to low-value content.
  • Meta announcements under the guise of "seeking feedback".

I never imagined I could be this disappointed in this website.

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    I realise this is strongly worded. I tried to tone it down, but frankly, I'm seething. Commented 2 days ago
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    I think it's appropriated for it to be strongly worded. That's pretty much I've felt about their last announcement, it felt like a hard shift to a different reality, like people coming to my house and dragging me to somewhere else. I still struggle to be objective and not hammer some points home. Commented 2 days ago
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    "I wonder if anyone involved has ever asked a question on SO" do you have any doubts about that? Commented yesterday
  • I'd be surprised, @talex. Commented yesterday
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    To be honest, they probably have tried asking questions and, because of the site's piss-poor new user education, those questions went the way of most questions here: quickly closed, never improved, and into the Roomba's hungering maw. Now me, I've never asked a question here. Not because I'm a freaking genius, but because A) they'd already been asked and answered or B) a good question-asking process is also a great problem solving process and by the time I've had a question worth asking I've solved the problem or found an easier way. Commented yesterday
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    the functional destruction of one of the historic best resources of the internet is good reason to express strong feelings Commented yesterday
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All of your "Curator Experience" bullet points read like a task list to me. If you're setting the expectation that a curator works this way, the curator should also set the expectation of their hourly rate.

Seriously, you expect the average volunteer curator to do

  • explain downvotes on their own (something curators have already universally rejected doing)
  • hide questions which haven't got any feedback/input (which already happens if a question is downvoted enough)
  • take on the burden of classifying questions on their own (and there's already more than enough flak over re-tagging a question, so we're just gonna keep doing that thing that already annoys certain people for whatever reason)
  • add context to a duplicate link (which...already exists plenty with the current flow)
  • allow an OP to insist that this time, their NullReferenceException is different (and only once in about every 3,000 times have I seen or reopened one of those questions with a gold badge that I've closed because it actually was, so...this flow does exist)
  • send questions to other parts of the network when the vast majority have explicitly rejected migrations from Stack Overflow because it's not suitable on their site either

...all for free??

I honestly don't know what to make of this. It's like, avoiding the last decade-plus of Meta because, instead of taking what was discussed there as community perspective, useful context for improvement and the convention on which curators move with, you're saying it's a new dawn and we've gotta do something radical to shake things up, so all the things that made the curators you have now need to be thrown out. (That'll probably scare off the few remaining curators, y'know.)

This sentiment also feels divorced from reality, again:

We want to take each close reason and move it towards a curation workflow that fits in more reasonably with Stack Overflow today. We want to differentiate “this content doesn’t belong on Stack Overflow” from “this isn’t a question I am interested in,” which is different from “this is high-quality content that is worth promoting”. We want tooling that lets those signals exist independently, and we want curator input on what that actually looks like in practice.

If you can find one example of a question which was closed because the curator wasn't interested in the question, then just reopen the dang question and discipline that curator, because that has never, ever, ever been a valid reason for a question to be closed.

Questions can be downvoted simply because it's hard to understand what's being asked, what the problem actually is, or because the question doesn't make contextual sense and wouldn't bring future value, which - I must stress again - is not the same as "I don't like this question".

It's tough to deliver a solution that works if you're not understanding the problem space or domain you're meant to be solving. That's probably why much of the posting here seems to be geared to helping all y'all get back on track, from our perspective, on what we're expecting this to be.

But maybe it's the other way around. Maybe we're the ones in the wrong here. Despite what we've been posting about here on Meta, despite what we've pleaded and recommended, and how we wanted to work together, maybe you have a clear and decisive picture of the domain you need to move toward, and maybe we're the ones who are obstinate.

Either way, I don't think the curators voicing their thoughts here and the company's vision are aligned. No matter how we got here, I think that's what's going on right now.

Feels like this stalemate's been going on for as long as I can remember, and nothing's going to improve if no one does anything to break the stalemate.

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    A lot of folks seem to be breaking the stalemate. By leaving. Commented 2 days ago
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    Couldn't agree more. Commented 2 days ago
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    Great to see you ~one last time here, Makoto! Commented 2 days ago
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    I don't remember for sure where I know you from and when I upvoted your post but it's telling we are on the same doorstep knocking with no-one opening us. Commented yesterday
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This creates a much stronger feedback signal. Rather than wondering if your duplicate suggestion was helpful, you receive a clear data point. If an author does not accept the proposed answer, it signals to curators that the question may have a unique nuance that requests a new distinct answer.

The thing is, we don't care about that. When we close a question as a duplicate, it's because we are 100% sure that the answers in the linked question are the best solution.

There have been situations when users applied too broad criteria for determining if it's a duplicate or not, or used a too generic duplicate target. But that's not the fault of the system.

What happens if the question asker disagrees that their question is a duplicate? Should they vote to reopen? How is that different from what we have now?

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    My experience here is most of the disagreements with the duplicate closure will be of the "My code still doesn't work!" Variety. This is usually because they applied the answer incorrectly or because they had multiple bugs. In the current system, both should be a trigger for a new question, but in the new system, they can be handled inline as part of the discussion. But this comes at the risk of muddying up what could have otherwise been a relatively clean and clear question. Fortunately, the "correct" answer is still at the duplicate. Commented 2 days ago
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    On the closure topic, there have been times I've wanted to answer a post closed as a duplicate, but my answer doesn't fit the marked duplicate. Just because answers on a different question can apply doesn't mean all answers can apply to both. Commented 2 days ago
  • Agreed ^. If there's a better, more specific way to answer the asker's question it should be made available. If the answer doesn't fit at the existing question canonical because the duplicate is too broad, that's a different problem. In that case I suggest talking the asker into narrowing the scope of the question. Failing at that, throwing the asker into the Great Pit of Carkoon is an acceptable alternative. Commented 2 days ago
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    I also, at least in my experience, find that duplicates are one of the easiest to get reopened. Many questions are closed as duplicates by gold badgers, and those same users can revert that vote. If the asker was unclear, and takes a moment to explain why it's not a duplicate the route to opening is pretty quick; they can ping the closer in the comments and they can reopen it if they evidenced appropriately. I've reopened many questions over the years where this has been the case. Commented yesterday
  • Actually I've closed many questions as duplicates where not all the answers on the duplicate target are a good solution/explanation. But that's not because the questions weren't duplicates, it was just that many of the 20 or more answers on the canonical were low quality, plain wrong, or just did not have enough depth to be useful to the asker of the dupe. In those cases I would have loved being able to point out one (or a few) of the answers, some of which were not top-voted already. (Of course by no means this should be mandatory). Commented 6 hours ago
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This is a giant pile of weasel words, and sounds exactly like yet another company bait-and-switch. Let's keep in mind a few facts:

  1. Most closed questions are not going unanswered because we've closed them. It's the other way around, we've closed them because they are unanswerable. While it's true that some opinion-based questions are answerable, those are not the majority of closed questions.

  2. Your opinion-based questions experiment has eliminated all closure reasons, and many of those questions are unanswerable. That helps nobody, including the asker, and just pollutes the site. You're going to claim that it's just an experiment, that it's not the company's vision of the final design, that you are looking for input, etc., but from past experiments and the carefully tuned noncommittal language here, I don't believe you. Your opinion-based questions experiment could have simply eliminated the 'opinion-based' and 'asking for off-site resources' closure reasons and kept the rest of the closure reasons and process. In other words, if you really meant to keep curation around, then that's what your experiment would have done. It would have been much easier to implement.

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Our long-term vision is smarter backend routing. A system that identifies where a question would be best suited, whether that be adding certain tags or considering other Stack Exchange sites. In the near term, we are consolidating off-topic flags into the existing flag workflow. This reduces the number of clicks and menus you have to navigate and removing the friction and redundancy currently found in the off-topic sub-menus.

This sounds like a good idea on paper, but have you done any research into it? There's a reason why moderators decline most requests for migration.

The network doesn't have a dedicated site for every question. Some questions simply cannot be answered by the community. For example, many cloud questions (Azure, AWS, etc.) have been closed as off-topic, not because they belong on a different site in the network, but because they can only be answered by the cloud provider and that information is fully in their control. Answers provided by community members could be unreliable and cause the information seeker to suffer financial repercussions.

This reason has also been used for posts that cannot be categorized as anything else. Things that aren't questions or requests for knowledge. Posts that do not belong on any Q&A site. Even the most intelligent system could not route it to a place where it belongs. Sure, they could be dealt by asking the mods to delete it straight away, but it's not something that a mod needs to deal with when we have appropriate close reasons.

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    Also adding tags cannot solve the problem of question being off-topic. It is off topic because of its content, not because of used or not used tags. Commented 2 days ago
  • I think "smarter" should be read as "automated" here. Commented 2 days ago
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    Unless this is some fancy SO-only feature, mods cannot migrate old questions. On the sites I mod, at least, I get "A community-specific reason (too old to migrate)" option instead of just "A community-specific reason" and the next page doesn't have the "This question belongs on another site in the Stack Exchange network" option. Commented yesterday
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    @terdon There is a secret way to do it, but it's a moot point since we don't do it anyway. Commented yesterday
  • I can only assume that's some JS hack then, but maybe remove it from your answer? I have been telling users for years that we cannot migrate old questions and your answer suggests we can. I consider things that require us to get around the functionality provided by the UI as not really something mods "can do". Commented yesterday
  • @terdon I was only talking from the technical perspective. I didn't mean that it's something mods are actually allowed to do. Commented yesterday
  • @peterh Please stop with the conspiracy theories. Commented yesterday
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this isn’t a question I am interested in

That is not a close reason and never has been.

We want tooling that lets those signals exist independently, and we want curator input on what that actually looks like in practice.

There is no need for an “I’m not interested” signal, just don’t look at the question. We already have voting and closure, and you know very well how both work in practice.

We want to decouple quality signaling from the asker’s ability to receive an answer

If no one can understand the question enough to give an answer, it is definitionally low-quality. It’s utterly useless. Additionally, downvotes and close votes are different things!

We want to prevent the “hard lock” failure mode where questions are closed against a “duplicate” that may not actually solve the asker’s specific problem.

The entire point of duplicate closure is that the linked question solves the asker’s problem. If it doesn’t, then whoever closed it was just wrong and it should be reopened. No system changes are necessary.

Hoid, I have to assume you know these things already, and someone told you to put that in. It would be very helpful though if you and other CMs could relay this and other basic information about how curation works to whoever is making these decisions.

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  • My take is this particular bit was related to voting, not closure, and is tied to the intent to add an extra step to downvotes that more or less encompasses the purpose of existing close votes as well, on top of just generally not liking a given post. Commented 2 days ago
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    @user400654 Downvotes and close votes should be different. And “I dislike it” should never be a reason to do either Commented 2 days ago
  • whether they should or shouldn't doesn't necessarily change what they were trying to say when they said it, does it? Commented 2 days ago
  • If you look at the section "Needs more focus / low quality" they clearly seem to be indicating that downvotes on questions will be changed to serve the purpose that close votes do currently. Surely, if that's their intent, it makes sense to see the two statements as related in their mind. Commented 2 days ago
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    @user400654 My point is that’s a bad idea, and anyone who understood the site would get that. That they don’t is concerning Commented 2 days ago
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    I do understand the site, and get your point... but i still don't see what's wrong with taking these two tools (downvotes and closevotes) and connecting them, so that they both can lead down the same curation path. Downvotes on questions as they exist today serve no purpose other than leading to deletion, which close votes are better at dealing with because they have an explicit reason attached to them that can lead to whatever is wrong with the post being fixed. If what's wrong can't be fixed, fine, let that be a feedback option too. Commented 2 days ago
  • I also see this as a positive because it can lead to these votes not being just ignored because there were more upvotes casted than downvotes. Attached reasons give it more sticking power and can lead to the problems actually getting fixed. Commented 2 days ago
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    @user400654 Downvotes serve the purpose of telling users their content is not useful and/or not well researched/explained. That's different than close votes. While explaining your reason for downvoting is nice, its not required, and this has been discussed literally hundreds of times. It's this way for good reason. And my point is that there is a difference between you, who understands the site and thinks it should be slightly different, and what appears to be the understanding of senior management, who don't seem to get the difference between downvotes and close votes on current SO. Commented 2 days ago
  • there's no reason downvotes can't still serve that purpose with this new setup Commented 2 days ago
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    @user400654 Even in the light of a hypothetical new SO curation, conflating downvotes and close votes like this doesn’t make sense. Closure is the thing that questions can recover from and that can be handed off from curator to curator. (Down)voting is not recoverable, it’s not transferable, and it goes a metric ton more towards telling people they did a bad thing and all the drama that involves. Commented 2 days ago
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    @MisterMiyagi i would generally prefer for downvotes on questions to be at least somewhat recoverable, on answers... sure, they shouldn't be, but on questions i don't see why not. If the problems caused by the votes are "cleared", whatever that means in the new system, then the downvotes for that reason should also be cleared. :shrug: Commented 2 days ago
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    @user400654 Why don’t we go all in and rename downvotes to close votes then, while we are at it? Seems like you suggest going full circle to what we already have. Commented 2 days ago
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Instead of just putting a post notice on a duplicate question, we would also offer a curation flow where one or more of the canonical duplicate’s answers would appear directly on the duplicate question, with added context if needed.

This is a good change and I believe it's something we have been asking for. A way to point to a specific answer with some extra context to help see the OP how it applies to their specific problem. You don't need to overcomplicate this. The provided context could also be visible just to the OP, the people who voted to close and moderators.

Or you know... that extra context could also be provided in the comments after voting to close.

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    Indeed the duplicate suggestion pretty much sounds like... duplicate closure with more accuracy. Having authors explain why a duplicate doesn't match their case already exists now. The only thing that looks fishy is "We would also want to think of a feedback loop for the question author to accept that proposed duplicate answer before the question is locked to new answers." since that adds huge delays before a justified answer stop (which has been discussed to death already). Commented 2 days ago
  • I would be fine with displaying the most received answer, and if there is an accepted answer, under the question of a closed question, provided doing so would delete (migrate) answers to the duplicate that were submitted prior to it being closed. Commented 2 days ago
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    I agree with this, but don’t agree that the asker should be able to decline duplicate closure if they ‘don’t think it answers their question’. Generally I’ve found that to mean they haven’t read through the duplicate well enough, or taken the time to synthesize the knowledge gained into a solution for their question. Commented 2 days ago
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    @pilchard Also it would be super rude towards the curators if they could just veto the question closure. Commented 2 days ago
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We are looking to adapt the successful feedback mechanisms from the Staging Ground to work at the scale of the main site.

First of all, there is no "scale of the main site" anymore. The number of asked questions is extremely low and there are enough curators who more than capable of handling them all.

Now, to the main point.

You already have Staging Ground. But you never fully made it work, regardless of the feedback you received for it.

Main problem with SG is that not enough experts in the subject are able to see any particular question and give feedback on it.

First you made SG optional, so not all users see those questions at all. Considering that without SG those questions would end up being directly asked on the main site, there is absolutely no reason that SG is optional.

Next, SG question which has been reviewed and not published will vanish from the timeline. this makes those questions even less visible and less likely to be published if the question is sufficiently edited by the author.

For some questions early feedback can be given by many curators, but when question gets edited, only those who did initial review will be notified. But if the reviewer is not SME, it may happen that they are not in a good position to review the question again. Publishing question prematurely can have a negative impact on its reception. On the other hand, not publishing it means it will be stuck in SG without an answer.

If you would show those questions in the timeline, just like any other question, regardless of its review status, then actual experts would be able to see them, give feedback or publish and answer them.

All this would be extremely easy to implement.

Also you could give all users a choice to publish questions through SG, so those that really want feedback could get it.

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    @SecurityHound SG questions are preemptively closed. Only if it is not reviewed it will be automatically published in the 24 hours. If you choose Major changes or Off topic, or Opinion based review, it will have to be improved and then reviewed again. Commented 2 days ago
  • "Main problem with SG is that not enough experts" want to go to a place where the average question has even worse quality than on main. Your suggestion to make SG non-optional is from my PoV worse than just removing SG entirely. IMO the entire point is that these questions are somewhere else where people interested in mentoring users unable to formulate decent questions can do so, and I don't have to see them. If there are not enough mentors, then maybe take that as a sign that experts rarely want to provide free personal mentoring for randoms on the internet... Commented yesterday
  • @l4mpi I keep hearing this. But how is that different than the main site we had for years where such questions were part of it? You always had the ability to not open questions which could look like LQ ones. You don't have to open SG questions either as they are clearly marked as such. Also SG questions are generally not worse than other questions being posted. It seems to me that many people are completely missing the point of SG and what SG really is. It is not that SG somehow picks people who cannot formulate the question and sends them there, There are decent questions in SG, too. Commented yesterday
  • How is posting a comment asking for clarification in SG question different than doing that on the main site? This is exactly what many experts are doing right now. And if the question is in answerable state they can simply publish the question and then post an aswer. Commented yesterday
  • "You don't have to open SG questions either as they are clearly marked" - yeah, you don't have to click on "native ads" as well as they are clearly marked, so I guess you don't have a problem with your feed being full of those? It's stuff I don't want to see and the list I'm scrolling through already contains more than enough noise, no need to add another category. Re "SG questions are generally not worse", maybe that's true because quality overall is abyssmal, but I looked around SG for a week after it was released and what I saw back then made me disinclined to see any more of it. Commented yesterday
  • And "How is posting a comment asking for clarification in SG question different than doing that on the main site?" - it's the same in that I don't want to do either. If a question is unclear to the point of being unanswerable, I simply want to closevote it (and probably downvote as well although that depends on the specifics, e.g. if it looks like low-effort trash or not) and have OP invest effort to fix it. I stopped commenting my closevotes a long time ago because of useless discussions with OPs who failed to understand SO rules and got defensive instead (or offensive, sometimes). Commented yesterday
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    Again, nobody is forcing you to open SG questions. But properly functioning SG would be beneficial for the site. I am sorry if that would inconvenience you, but better onboarding for new users is what we actually asked for. It is just that currently SG is not properly functioning because of problems I mentioned in my post. Commented yesterday
  • Yes nobody is forcing me to open SG posts, but I'm saying forcing them into my list it would amount to enshittification similar to the whole native ads BS (which, luckily, are blockable). Also we had the same discussion recently - I never asked for better onboarding, and would be entirely fine with simply excluding users until they are capable of formulating questions that are not close-worthy. As I said, the problems you mention boil down to not enough people volunteering to act as mentors in the SG "onboarding" process. You don't "fix" that by shoving these posts into everyones face. Commented yesterday
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    @l4mpi to be fair your are overreacting. The problem is not lack of volunteers, but those questions are not easily discoverable even for those people that do volunteer. I am saying that once question is reviewed (it can be a wrong review) it is gone from the list of questions, and you need to go actively into the SG to fish out such questions instead of them being visible on the timeline even for those people who do want to see it. Commented yesterday
  • Also SG is opt-in so many users are not even aware that they don't see all questions in the subject they could answer. SG is not longer the experiment and it needs to get properly on the site. Commented yesterday
  • "to be fair your are overreacting" that is a really funny sentence; not exactly seeing what's fair about it as you failed to acknowledge my point that filling my question list with things I explicitly do not want to see and thus diluting the decent content further amounts to enshittification. Also, nothing you wrote is a decent argument for making SG non-optional, maybe for making it opt-out instead of opt-in, but I still want nothing to do with it. Commented yesterday
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    One of the many core design flaws of SO were to force domain experts to view bad content hoping they would curate it, since if they are a technical domain expert then surely they are just as good at the completely unrelated thing that is site moderation, right? And because someone enjoys answering technical Java questions, then surely they also enjoy chewing through review queues or editing English grammar. What this badly designed system achieved in practice was just maximum friction between different kind of users, instead of creating a system with little to no friction. Commented yesterday
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    @Lundin You need to have some knowledge in order to curate most of the posts. You don't need that only for most obvious LQ ones. Experts are not forced to do anything, the only thing here on SO is that if you don't have enough reputation you are not allowed to do some things which you might otherwise be qualified for. But for most curation you still need some expertise in the subject and that is why relying on experts to leave comments or do other activities besides answering doesn't really have an alternative. Commented yesterday
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    @l4mpi What I really don't understand here is how is that different from having to look at all the garbage questions asked on regular site. Yes, you cannot downvote them, but if they are really that bad you can easily review them and leave a canned comment which will make them "closed" and for off topic ones you don't even have to leave the comment. So basically besides downvoting those questions are moderable. Why all of the sudden nitpicking about seeing garbage when garbage was here all the time visible to all. Commented yesterday
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    Let's be realistic. Would you prefer seeing SG questions in your timeline and have curation as it-is now, or would you prefer having the new "improved" SO where you won't be able to close questions at all. Pick your battles please. Commented yesterday
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In the near term, we are consolidating off-topic flags into the existing flag workflow. This reduces the number of clicks and menus you have to navigate and removes the friction and redundancy currently found in the off-topic sub-menus.

Please don't turn "Off topic" into a single opaque category, in case that's what you mean. I think the close reasons help guide curators. I would say in fact the current (non-beta) UI fails to display those reasons enough (Reopen queue).

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    You can close questions on the beta website, so there is no reason to review them for reopening. It's maddening that the beta website would have no community moderation at all, even after the complete and total failure of questions seeking opinions, which has proven that the lack of community moderation is an issue. Commented 2 days ago
  • That reopen queue problem was a side note, it's a problem with the current site. I expect after all these changes that problem to be gone and others to appear in its place :) Commented 2 days ago
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Needs more focus / low quality

  • "Quality" is "the asker's ability to receive an answer". We close questions that need focus, lack details, or lack MREs because we don't have enough information to answer them. When that happens, it is important that the question remains closed so that bad answers that lack context do not flood the question page.
  • "Structured downvote reasons" already exist. They're called close reasons. The only reason to switch from close reasons to "downvote reasons" would be to make downvotes less unfriendly, which I don't think will work. The perception of unfriendliness comes from the big negative number; adding text to that probably won't help. (Which we know because "on hold" didn't really work.)

Opinion-based

  • This is potentially fine in theory.
  • In practice, it will be bad for all the reasons that the experiment is bad. I am not going to rehash them here; there are way too many and (given company track records) I have insufficient faith that they would be addressed.

Duplicate

  • Duplicate questions still need to be closed. Otherwise, people will only notice the one transcluded answer from the canonical and inadvertently post duplicates of the canonical answers that weren't transcluded. If that happens, duplicates will stop serving their purpose: reducing duplication by pooling answers in one place.
  • Incorrect duplicates are not a "hard lock". There is already a recommended pathway for resolving them: editing the question and voting to reopen.
  • "[A]n author does not accept the proposed answer" is a very bad feedback signal. There are too many confounding variables: the author could've lost interest in the problem, solved it independently, lost access to their account, etc.

Off-topic

  • There are a lot of off-topic close reasons. How exactly do you plan on expanding them out? It seems like any time gained in clicks will be lost in scrolling.
  • Migrations by automated systems or non-moderator users seem like a really bad idea. We try to avoid migrations in general since experienced Stack Overflow users often do not understand the asking guidelines on other sites. In other words, I wouldn't trust the "smarter backend routing" to not. Migrate. Crap.
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  • What you did to the migration to the last 1.5 decades, alone explains, why the system needs radical changes, both sociologically and technologically. Only the offtopic closed questions, killed and destroyed by you, could have been enough to start 90 Stack Exchange sites. Not only your unthinkable offense, what you did, but also unthinkable fault of the company that they have allowed it. Commented yesterday
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    @peterh I have been here for less than two years. Also, if you think migration needs reform, please raise that in a separate question; it's not going to get the attention you want in the comments of an answer to a mostly-unrelated post. Commented yesterday
  • I would suggest to try also other SE sites, there is a lot. In general, they are small, often very different, and generally they have a much better mood as the SO. Important thing that 8% of the closed questions were closed as offtopic, and most of them could have had a much better place on one of them. I am here since 2012, but quite honestly I could not yet figure out, why the rules seem intentionally harden the content move into other sites. Yes I know who is Atwood, and who am I, still I believe, he committed a big mistake with this post. Commented yesterday
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I'm going to go ahead and answer each of the sections in your heading individually, just to get my thoughts written down:

Needs more focus / low quality

A lack of focus has nothing to do with quality; a question can be very well asked but lack focus. You have confused 2 very different issues here

Goal: We want to decouple quality signaling from the asker’s ability to receive an answer. We want to create more space to ask questions that may not be perfectly formed on their first attempt.

Quality "signaling[sic]" (votes?) has only affected a users ability to get answers by the fact that a low quality questions may not be shown to as many people. Being Low Quality, by itself, does not stop something getting answers, however, it might mean people aren't interested in answering.

Idea: We are thinking about structured downvote reasons. Preset categories that provide context beyond a negative score. We are looking to adapt the successful feedback mechanisms from the Staging Ground to work at the scale of the main site.

Downvotes, with reasons, has been a long discussed topic. I don't think we need to cover that here for the nth time. You do, however, need to ensure protections of the voters; responses to providing my reasoning for why a post might be getting downvotes (even when I haven't voted, or might have even upvoted), are some of the most toxic experiences a user can have on Stack Overflow.

Curator Experience: To prevent “review fatigue” we want to think about different viewing modes. Curators could toggle between seeing questions that have not received any feedback or hiding questions that have already been addressed by other curators. This would lead to the question eventually being deleted if no efforts were ever made to improve it by the author.

Users are already limited on how many reviews they can do in each queue, and they can easily bail out if they want to. I don't see "review fatigue" as an issue.

Opinion-based

Goal: We recognize that well-formed, opinion-based questions have value, but we also know that not everyone cares for them. Our goal is to make this content opt-in/out based on individual preference.

Opinion based contact can have value, I don't disagree, however, the implementations Stack has done so far have been bad. If your goal was to make these experiences better, why not actually improve those features, rather than break the entire site?

Idea: There could be a classification layer using categories using question types like “Tooling Recommendation,” “how do I,” or “implementation guidance." These would allow users to ignore, follow, etc., just like other tags, and only see content that they are interested in.

We have this, and it's broken... Posts can't be migrated, and users are tricked into selecting the wrong category. For the 100th time, where is the "How to?" category?! Fix the solution(s) you've tried.

Curator Experience: Rather than voting to close, curators could instead have the ability to reclassify the posts. This could mimic the workflow of changing tags on a post that we already have.

Why not give curators, and moderators, the power to curate/moderate the solution you have? We've been asking for this and you CONTINUE to ignore us; this isn't your idea, it's the community's.

Duplicates

Goal: We want to prevent the “hard lock” failure mode where questions are closed against a “duplicate” that may not actually solve the asker’s specific problem.

This already exists; we have reopen votes. That users don't edit their question, after it is closed, to explain why a question doesn't answer theirs, is the author's fault, not the community's. Those that do, often get met with success; either with an explanation of why in the comments or by reopen votes.

Idea: Instead of just putting a post notice on a duplicate question, we would also offer a curation flow where one or more of the canonical duplicate’s answers would appear directly on the duplicate question, with added context if needed. Then the asker would still have the opportunity to accept the proposed duplicate answer or leave context explaining why it doesn’t answer their question. We would also want to think of a feedback loop for the question author to accept that proposed duplicate answer before the question is locked to new answers.

This is what we expect to happen already, you know that, right?

Curator Experience: This creates a much stronger feedback signal. Rather than wondering if your duplicate suggestion was helpful, you receive a clear data point. If an author does not accept the proposed answer, it signals to curators that the question may have a unique nuance that requests a new distinct answer.

Again, this is what is meant to happen; that authors don't do this isn't the community's fault. Educate your new users; we have also been asking for better onboarding for years.

Off-Topic

Goal: Maintain Stack Overflow’s focus on programming without making “Off-Topic” feel like a shut door for users with legitimate technical questions that may belong elsewhere.

We have a tool for technical questions that belong elsewhere; it's called migration. We can't, however, migrate older posts; maybe you should allow us to do so. Off-topic questions are normally more that they aren't suitable on any site. Also, don't forget, users have a small selection of sites that things can be migrated to; give them more options if you want those questions to go elsewhere.

Idea: Our long-term vision is smarter backend routing. A system that identifies where a question would be best suited, whether that be adding certain tags or considering other Stack Exchange sites. In the near term, we are consolidating off-topic flags into the existing flag workflow. This reduces the number of clicks and menus you have to navigate and removes the friction and redundancy currently found in the off-topic sub-menus.

Making people aware that other sites exist, before they ask, isn't a bad thing, but tags aren't always a good indicator. They are often misused, and there's plenty of cross over. is an absolute mine-field and I have no idea what is and isn't on-topic for it.

Curator Experience: Curators would be able to monitor this system and implement mechanisms to better fine-tune the decision-making process. When necessary, they would also be able to intervene in the event of something being routed somewhere incorrectly.

There's not a lot here to really go on, so I can't really comment.


The short here is that several places here you seem to mistake downvote reasons for closure reasons; these are not the same. Often questions that are close further are downvoted, but that doesn't necessarily mean they should be (a high quality question that needs migration shouldn't be downvoted). Likewise a downvote doesn't mean closure; a common reason for closure is due to a lack of research.

Unclear

You also completely miss the unclear closure reason; the question is on-topic, however, what they actually want to ask is completely unapparent. These are problematic, and often result in bad answers if they are answered; the answers guess at what the requirements are, often can completely miss the mark and when (if) the question is clarified it can frequently invalidate the answer(s). This is why closure for these questions is important, because it stops those answers.

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    "We can't, however, migrate older posts". Allowing migration of older posts is not such a good idea. It could cause havoc. Commented yesterday
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    I don't disagree, the damage has been done, @Dharman . But Stack Inc seems to use their existence as ammunition against curation, so I do think we need to do something. Commented yesterday
  • @Dharman lesser of two evils. Commented yesterday
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    Ability to migrate older posts that don't belong here would be great. This would have to be coordinated with the receiving site, but we have plenty of otherwise good questions that simply don't belong here. Giving them proper home with redirection would be a win for everyone. Commented yesterday
  • "This already exists; we have reopen votes. That users don't edit their question, after it is closed, to explain why a question doesn't answer theirs, is the author's fault, not the community's." Its also arguably the platforms fault (ie something that @Hoid should be looking at), The platform needs really clear messaging that when something is closed, the expectation is someone should edit it. Giving people the option to go to staging ground for help, adding notifications, and in other ways clearing up the UX here would be really helpful. Commented 19 hours ago
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Idea: There could be a classification layer using categories using question types like “Tooling Recommendation,” “how do I,” “implementation guidance. These would allow users to ignore, follow, etc., just like other tags, and only see content that they are interested in.

When are we going to get to hash out what these classifications should be and what should happen when they are chosen? Out of the gate we were given classification options that shoved perfectly valid every day Q&A questions into a discussion format that is ill-suited to answering them. Despite this being a known issue, it's still the case today, months later.

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    At the moment, I thought they've said the roadmap is for all questions to eventually use a discussion format, thus there would be no difference. If I understood that correctly, what's missing for me is a vision of how Q&A is supposed to happen under that format. Commented 2 days ago
  • @DanGetz I agree, but what we see right now is the same mix we have today. I don't see a future for me on this site if we move to the discussion format, regardless if they move to the curation framework i've been suggesting since the SG was soft launched Commented 2 days ago
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    There is a simple solution to this problem, one I have been advocating al along. All those questions need to have the same, regular Q/A format. Threaded replies is not a good format for any kind of questions, opinion based or not. Commented 2 days ago
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We want to take each close reason and move it towards a curation workflow that fits in more reasonably with Stack Overflow today. We want to differentiate “this content doesn’t belong on Stack Overflow” from “this isn’t a question I am interested in,” which is different from “this is high-quality content that is worth promoting”.

This is so far removed from how closure works that I cannot meaningfully address it. Which close reason, exactly, do y'all think means "this isn't a question I am interested in"?

Goal: We want to decouple quality signaling from the asker’s ability to receive an answer. We want to create more space to ask questions that may not be perfectly formed on their first attempt.

You already have a product for this: https://stackoverflow.com/staging-ground/ If you want fewer questions to be closed, put more questions through that process.

Goal: We recognize that well-formed, opinion-based questions have value, but we also know that not everyone cares for them. Our goal is to make this content opt-in/out based on individual preference.

You already have a product for this: https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/ That's literally why this site was created; for programming questions that are just a bit too subjective or open-ended for Stack Overflow.

Goal: We want to prevent the “hard lock” failure mode where questions are closed against a “duplicate” that may not actually solve the asker’s specific problem.

You already have a solution for this: question askers can edit and vote to reopen their own questions. Editing it gives them an option to automatically put the question in the reopen vote queue.

Idea: Instead of just putting a post notice on a duplicate question, we would also offer a curation flow where one or more of the canonical duplicate’s answers would appear directly on the duplicate question, with added context if needed. Then the asker would still have the opportunity to accept the proposed duplicate answer or leave context explaining why it doesn’t answer their question. We would also want to think of a feedback loop for the question author to accept that proposed duplicate answer before the question is locked to new answers.

I'm not opposed to this, but 1) how will voting on the copy work? Will it be clear that it's a copy; will you be able to vote on the same answer multiple times; will rep be doubled? and 2) please note that you are using terms incorrectly here. Duplicate questions are closed, not locked. Please do not use the term locked to refer to anything other than an actual lock that prevents interactions by non-mods or non-staff.

Goal: Maintain Stack Overflow’s focus on programming without making “Off-Topic” feel like a shut door for users with legitimate technical questions that may belong elsewhere.

Cool, for the hundredth time, the community has given you a hand-crafted solution for this, myself included: Auto-direct users during the ask wizard step to the appropriate site based on machine learning/generative AI scanning. Y'all love genAI tech now, right? Here is one actually good use for it; making askers (and the company, apparently) aware that Stack Exchange already has lots of other sites besides Stack Overflow.

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While closure was an effective tool to manage higher volume in the past

That's besides, well, reality. We never closed question because we've had enough to answer elsewhere. We close questions that simply doesn't target the goal of this site.

We want to take each close reason and move it towards a curation workflow that fits in more reasonably with Stack Overflow today.
...
We want tooling that lets those signals exist independently, and we want curator input on what that actually looks like in practice.

I do agree that the tools provided are sometimes too simple and do not balance the interests of asker and answerer enough.

We are thinking about structured downvote reasons.

If that means a bar of buttons below the question, where answeres can simply click downvotes FOR a reason why this question is bad, I would welcome it. It would be nicer and more effective than downvoting that on the first level is just a vote AGAINST the question (in its current state).

A preset of pre-formulated ones and the ability to add a custom button would be great. Sometimes questions don't receive answers because we look for an interesting title click on the question and find a huge code-block or a huge text you have to work yourself through, even though the question implies a reasonable scope and you get uninterested in the question.

I remember my first question and today I know how silly it must have looked to an expert. However it took awhile before I received an answer, watching the amount of views grow, maintaining a positive score and no other feedback at all. Today I would hesitate to address that question myself, not because I can't answer, but it requires a lot of context for a good answer. I would guess old-timers here would have even closed the question with the asker lacks of a fundamental understanding of the problem. Maybe some would say it lacks of focus, but I would say the question isn't well scoped which you can see on the amount of views it received. No one really cares about it.

So providing feedback without the need of engaging with the user directly which can be time consuming and not in the interest of an answerer is a good compromise in my opinion.

We recognize that well-formed, opinion-based questions have value, but we also know that not everyone cares for them. Our goal is to make this content opt-in/out based on individual preference.

I agree here, additional space for additional content that may not be requested by the SO-community but requested from the outside to attract people to this site is a legit interest of the company, in my opinion. You have to pay for the hosting and have to please others than the community of SO as well. That's fair.

In addition I think there is a fairly big amount of people who wants to exchange their views and grow by it. A bar below [newest] [active]... with a selection of [all] [debugging].. would sort things out.

The thing that annoys me the most about that feature, is that it is just been mixed with my answers. The answers must be sorted out as well. I don't know if we want that to be as comment or a different reputation system or whatever, please go ahead and figure this out. But I'm sure that this thingy is mixed with my answers does not just hold me personally back from using that feature.

We want to prevent the “hard lock” failure mode where questions are closed against a “duplicate” that may not actually solve the asker’s specific problem.

Fair enough.

we would also offer a curation flow where one or more of the canonical duplicate’s answers would appear directly on the duplicate question, with added context if needed.

As a first automatically generated feedback, that's good enough and the ability to write extra context, for people who wanna do the hard work of pointing the finger on it, that's great.

Then the asker would still have the opportunity to accept the proposed duplicate answer or leave context explaining why it doesn’t answer their question.

IF that means a veto-right by the asker, thats a really bad idea. While nowadays it's less common, but we also have had trolls here they just want to annoy you by interacting with you.

Besides, we do have the meta-site for it, but many of us don't bother to go here, searching a ton of meta question to find the subject it is discussed. If we automatically generate a meta-post and post a link below, where askers should go anyway if they disagree, I'm in. That just helps people to navigate in the process in which is agreed upon.

This also could make the closing/reopening wars more transparent.

Maintain Stack Overflow’s focus on programming without making “Off-Topic” feel like a shut door for users with legitimate technical questions that may belong elsewhere.

Great one. Even veterans have sometimes issues knowing, where the question belongs. If it's about server, Linux-specific or whatever. This also supports smaller sites and again navigates users through the fairly complex structure of SE.


PS: I still wish I could see the related questions of smaller sites here in one questions feed. But I'm unsure how one would implement it. An orange tag featured by CodeReview or even something in the title, still maintaining to sort it out, would been really cool in my opinion.

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    The overwhelming majority of the VtC review queue is for closure, and also the voting times clearly show, the reviewer had simply no time to make a well-reasoned decision. It is not a decision process, it is a race to cast the most possible close votes without failed audits; it should not be so, but it is so. Recognizing it, it is clear, something must happen, unfortunately. Commented yesterday
  • "Supporting smaller sites": majority of the VtC voters do not even know them, they also do not understand why they should be migrated instead closed-deleted. Question migration is very hard here, practically impossible, there was never clear explanation for that. An unthinkable amoung of content, together with their contributors, were lost, while migration could have saved them, and no one cared for it. Commented yesterday
  • @peterh It would be an interesting experiment to put a higher rate limit on how often users are allowed to vote to close in the queue. Because with reasonable flows, expecting people to vote no more than once every 30s to a minute shouldn't be disruptive, but it would be a major issue to roboreviewers. (And maybe also a mod flag off consistently low review times?) Commented 19 hours ago
  • @user1937198 They will say, "I have already seen <anything> in the post, this is why I could decide in just 2 seconds". Beside that, when the reviewer opened the review entity, is not registered anywhere in public form, although it is available in the SE server log. Only the timestamps of their consecutive review decisions are visible, which is a much weaker proof. It is not enough if I know, I see a fake robo-closer "reviewer", what is the majority of them, I must give proof. Not even the mods see the strong proofs, it is available only in the server logs. Commented 19 hours ago
  • @user1937198 Beside that, what we have here, is more than a decade long ossified bad custom. It is also quite vehemently defended by the majority of the meta contributors, the company partly believes them, and in many aspects they seem to be stronger even as the CMs. How could you fight it with some induvidual flags? It is too strong, there is no easy way to deal with it. Even that I can do what I do now, is possible only because they have already killed the site, and it is risky even now, I can be blocked any time for anything (like "insulting comments" like last time). Commented 19 hours ago
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Before making major changes to curation, the boundaries of the "things" we are talking about should be clarified. This includes the types of content to be handled and where they will be handled.

The identity of "Stack Overflow" is unclear. The new logo, "open-ended-questions", the "redesign", and the "what next for curation" are worsening this problem. The opening of the chat to everyone is also worsening it.

What could be the guidance to choose where to post an inquiry for information and help? Should it be posted in the chat or on one of the "main sites"? How should we tell the user that there is no place in the Stack Exchange network for their inquiry when that is appropriate?

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    It would be very fine, keep the high level orthodoxy, problem is that it was misused. I would very happily agree your view, if I had seen good people in the review histories of the last decade; but I have seen the opposite. Commented yesterday
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    @peterh But if we want to change the otherdoxy, we also need to be clear on what the new orthodoxy is, and how that distinguishes itself so stackoverflow doesn't end up a poor clone of reddits r/programming. Commented 19 hours ago
  • @user1937198 Yes. Problem is that saying what is bad is easy, saying what is good, is long and hard to get a wide agreement on that. I could talk with you about it a lot, but it would easily become a lengthy mess. But there some simple, crucial points, which could be talked about even here. First, we need race among the sites, while the content and user base remains inside the network. That is also how capitalism work. I suspect, the real reason, why content migration is intentionally hardened since the very beginning, might lie somewhere here. Commented 18 hours ago
  • @user1937198 Second, the site wants grow. Both in quality and also in quantity. This triviality, this nuance, this very obvious principle is the worst for which I have got back the worst attacks in the last decade. And not I, but anyone. Here we see a company in the USA, flagship of the capitalism, and even mentioning Adam Smith's invisible hand concept causes the worst attacks, including a -20 voting score. Why? It is hilarious. Commented 18 hours ago
  • @user1937198 Third, which is close to the second. About the rep. Reputation is the reward for us. Most of us works quite hardly to see the green rectangle, and most of us invested a lot of work to reach a high one. Why is it forbidden to simply admit it? I am pride for, what I have reached and I am ready to work for more. Most of us thinks the same, but no one admits it, there is even a quasi insulting word "rep farming". Saying that I want more rep, means that I want to provide upvoted content, the most positive intent I can imagine in the frame of tihs system. Why is it taboo? Commented 18 hours ago
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Goal: We want to decouple quality signaling from the asker’s ability to receive an answer. We want to create more space to ask questions that may not be perfectly formed on their first attempt.

The entire point of the "too broad" close reason is that some questions can't be reasonably answered as formulated because they require too much guidance or far too long of an answer. I don't understand exactly how allowing answers to questions that can't be reasonably answered in their current form is supposed to help.

If a question can be reasonably answered as formulated, it probably shouldn't have been closed in the first place.

Idea: We are thinking about structured downvote reasons. Preset categories that provide context beyond a negative score. We are looking to adapt the successful feedback mechanisms from the Staging Ground to work at the scale of the main site.

Variants of this have already been proposed and rejected a zillion times. The reasons that this is a bad idea have already been enumerated in Why isn't it required to provide comments/feedback for downvotes, and why are proposals suggesting this so negatively received?

Goal: We recognize that well-formed, opinion-based questions have value, but we also know that not everyone cares for them. Our goal is to make this content opt-in/out based on individual preference.

I think that there's a misalignment on what constitutes a "well-formed, opinion-based" question. Other sites, like Literature Stack Exchange and The Workplace, have proven that questions that are at least somewhat subjective can work in a Q&A format, subject to the constraint that it's possible to reasonably defend answers with evidence. Answers are also expected to be supported by evidence.

Chitchat type discussions that are not expected to answer the question or be supported with evidence may be entertaining for participants but are largely useless to other people.

Idea: There could be a classification layer using categories using question types like “Tooling Recommendation,” “how do I,” or “implementation guidance." These would allow users to ignore, follow, etc., just like other tags, and only see content that they are interested in.

There's already a tool recommendation site, so I don't understand what the point of this proposal is. If people want to ask these questions, we should be more aggressive about directing them there. Also, these questions were banned on Stack Overflow because they simply don't work well on the site and it's not clear to me why they would go better now. See: Q&A is hard, let's go shopping!

Our long-term vision is smarter backend routing. A system that identifies where a question would be best suited, whether that be adding certain tags or considering other Stack Exchange sites.

I would strongly support that. Picking the correct site can be a little overwhelming for new users (especially with more obscure sites like tool recommendations).

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We want to differentiate “this content doesn’t belong on Stack Overflow” from “this isn’t a question I am interested in,” which is different from “this is high-quality content that is worth promoting”.

May I propose the following differentiation:

  • "Content that does not belong on Stack Overflow": close, and delete if it's unsalvageable.
  • "This isn't a question I am interested in": click away, add any uninteresting tags to your ignore list if they aren't there already, possibly edit the question to add those tags if they aren't already present.
  • "This is high-quality content that is worth promoting": upvote, copy a short-link to share it off-site, possibly use a bounty to reward an especially good answer.

Estimated cost of implementing these features is zero, since they are the status quo.

If it is your allegation that the community is wrongly using the close/delete features on content simply because we aren't personally interested in it, then that allegation should be substantiated. The solution would be better education for appropriate use of these existing features, or perhaps revocation of privileges (e.g. temporary block to the site) for persistent abuse.

Goal: We want to decouple quality signaling from the asker’s ability to receive an answer

This is a bad goal which will harm the quality of content on the site. If a question is too unclear, vague or open-ended in its current state by our standards, then there is a likelihood that any answers written will not address what the asker actually wants, and that subsequent edits to the question to make it clearer and more focused will obviate the already-written answers. That is why we prevent answers being written on questions while they are in such a state.

Goal: We recognize that well-formed, opinion-based questions have value, but we also know that not everyone cares for them. Our goal is to make this content opt-in/out based on individual preference.

This is not as bad as a goal, but it's still bad and will harm the quality of content on the site. In practice, it is much harder to set clear standards for which opinion-based questions are acceptable and which aren't, and this will lead to more low quality questions being written and not removed.

Moreover, the userbase who currently curate questions and answers are probably not much interested in curating opinion-based questions if there are standards which allow them, so having an opt-in/out section of the site where most curators don't go is a recipe for slop and spam.

Goal: We want to prevent the “hard lock” failure mode where questions are closed against a “duplicate” that may not actually solve the asker’s specific problem.

This is a bad goal because it is based on a false premise. Question closure is not a "hard lock" any more than any other closure reason. If a question is not really a duplicate, this can be resolved in comments or by editing the question, and then the question can be re-opened.

If you think it should be easier to get such questions reopened, that's fine, we can talk about that. Allowing duplicate questions to stay open for answers is not a suitable alternative, and will only result in the 99% of genuine duplicates receiving duplicative answers from rep-chasers.

Goal: Maintain Stack Overflow’s focus on programming without making “Off-Topic” feel like a shut door for users with legitimate technical questions that may belong elsewhere.

I must say I don't really understand what this goal is. If it's really just about making people feel better when their questions are closed as off-topic, I don't see how expanding the set of allowed topics (as your idea suggests) would do anything towards this goal. There will still be topics that aren't allowed, and questions on those topics will still be closed, and the people who wrote those questions will still feel bad about it.

If I understand the goal correctly, it seems the best thing to do is to soften the wording shown to users when their question is closed due to being off-topic, and explain to those users what their alternative options are.

0

Would it be best to do this more systematically? E.g., for each of these topics, make a list of all theoretically possible solutions (don't worry about whether or not they're "good" at first), and when we have a fairly comprehensive list, run them through the gamut of meta, objectively identfying the pros and cons (and not just automatically assume "status quo = best").

E.g. for "duplicates" alone, there are many plausible mechanisms:

  1. no change;
  2. label re-posts as duplicate, but don't close them (i.e., allow answers);
  3. allow users to both "label as duplicate" (don't close) and "close as duplicate";
  4. differentiate between "exact same question" and "in the same ballpark";
  5. differentiate between "frequently asked duplicates" and "one-off duplicates";
  6. close the older question as the duplicate of the re-post;
  7. wholesale allow re-posts (abolish closing as duplicates altogether);
  8. add a time delay between "label as duplicate" and "close as duplicate" (temporarily allow answers);
  9. don't close duplicates if it's a re-post of something older than [threshold date];
  10. allow re-posts at privleged user discretion;
  11. maintain a shortlist of repeatedly asked questions and close those.

"We've considered many options, and we chose the best of those" seems like it will result in a more optimized decision.

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    Ugh, please not. The community has discussed so many of these, and the company has asked for feedback so many times – it should be clear by now that anything above bugfix reports is just busywork to keep the community occupied. Commented 2 days ago
-11

Library, framework and software development tool recommendation questions are one of the easiest ways to drive engagement. Those questions are easy to write, easy to answer, and attract visitors long after they are written. I attribute a lot of the early StackOverflow success to the large number of product recommendation questions on the site at the time. I attribute a lot of the decline of StackOverflow to the community decision to disallow such questions.

Unfortunately there are some pretty good reasons that those questions lead to problematic behavior:

  • Perverse voting incentives: voting up one recommendation, voting down all others because you have a stake in the success of a product.
  • Spam attraction: the questions regularly get spammy answers in perpetuity.
  • Attract link-only answers
  • Answers get out of date fast

I would personally love to see some recommendation questions allowed with proper guard rails to address the problems. Some ideas off the top of my head:

  • Limit answer down votes. Maybe down votes shouldn't even be allowed on answers, or maybe only on 10% of answers.
  • More reputation required to answer, especially as the question ages. Maybe start with 10 rep required to answer recommendation questions. By the time the question is a year old, require 1000 rep to answer it.
  • Tooling when writing answers that detects link-only answers and prevents them from being submitted in the first place.
  • Link checkers that run periodically against such questions and flag answers where the links go dead or the content on them changes significantly. Maybe the flags are not for moderators, but put the answers into a review queue.
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  • By the time the question is a year old, require 1000 rep to answer it.-- this might prevent people from just signing in to advertise their own products. I think a tag [tool-recommendation] for the Advice section of this new feature would be cool. But I also see this getting abused. In any case a rep threshold makes sense, especially to prevent a bot flood hitting us. Commented yesterday
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    Erm, we have Software Recommendations and Hardware Recommendations . Or do I misunderstand this answer? Commented yesterday
  • @S.L.Barthisoncodidact.com just another SE-site I wasn't aware it existed. However this answer seems like it adresses programming libs in programming languages which the other seems to be about finished programs/add-ons and so on. Dont they? Commented yesterday
  • @Thingamabobs Yes, SoftwareRecs is about products. If Stephen Ostermiller meant to allow recommending specific programming tools, most notably libraries and frameworks, then I would understand this answer. The guardrails applied in the Software Recommendations SE would make a good starting point for the guardrails that "tool/framework recommendation questions" need. Commented yesterday
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    I edited the answer to focus on library and tool recommendations Commented yesterday
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    "I attribute a lot of the early SO success to the large number of product recommendation questions [and] a lot of the decline of SO to the community decision to disallow such questions." Incorrect from my perspective - I've been using SO as a dev resource since roughly mid 2009 (passively until I signed up late 2011), and cannot remember a single time I found value in a tool recommendation question. I also don't get the point of limiting answer DVs and it seems like an extremely bad idea no matter if that's supposed to be about recommendations or all answers; both can be wrong or harmful. Commented yesterday
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    Library and tool recommendations age like milk. Those questions are in no way valuable to a repository of knowledge. Commented yesterday
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    Software recommendation questions can be useful, but the problems you listed are big ones. And if a question is written slightly differently, asking how to solve a problem, then it doesn't need to be closed anymore. So I don't know if it's a good idea to allow questions like: "what is the best programming language in 2026" or "which tutorial is up-to-date with PHP 8.5". These are questions best answered by a search engine, not by a library of information. Commented yesterday
  • StackOverflow is the knowledge repository that powers search engines. I'd rather get recommendations from a well moderated site with experience and input from several experts than from some random site that puts up a half-baked top ten list. Commented 21 hours ago
  • How is a system built or what will be the criteria if only 10% of answers can be voted on? Commented 12 hours ago
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I think we have here a bit.... resistance against such initiatives like yours.

As I can see, they should have been long stopped, and imho it is clearly a company fault, why it did not happen.

For example, in 2014, where your new activity stats went into decrease. No one asked at you, why did it happen? No one tried to use the site as it is intended to, from an anon test account?

Now you seem starting to do something.

I think, you are probably late, but I hope - maybe not. I hope. There is always some hope.

You are fighting here a more than a decade long ossified sociological structure, they have expelled your visitors already far before the LLMs, sometimes I have the feeling that even your CM teammates fear them. Prepare the worst!

Do what you can! You know, even if you can not do what you need to, you still need to do, what you can!

Good luck!

(P.s. another important thing. The traffic of the other SE sites currently doubles the SO. Your initiative with the shared branding was imho not so bad, please integrate the sites better! There are many programming-related sites among them, they could extend the SO. But that would need that the "curators" do not kill the content belonging to other sites. They should migrate them. Question migration is one of the hardest, never really reasoned taboo since a decade here.)

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