-2264

Last week we made an important decision for our community. We removed a moderator for repeatedly violating our existing Code of Conduct and being unwilling to accept our CM’s repeated requests to change that behavior. We recognize it has caused concern in the community as a whole. We made a hard decision, and we stand by that decision. But we must also acknowledge the way in which we implemented it and our communications surrounding the decision could have been much better.

Moving forward, we will release an official process around removing moderators. We have a policy for users, but this is the first time we’ve had to remove a moderator for a Code of Conduct violation. If we have to remove a diamond in the future we will follow a published process. We’re finalizing the policy internally now and will ship it ASAP.

We learned (or were painfully reminded, rather) to never ship at 6 PM (EDT) on a Friday. We didn’t follow that rule last week and as a result there was a lot of confusion over the weekend. Even more, this weekend was a religious holiday observed by many on the site. We’re sorry for the confusion and uneasiness that caused.

We’re doing a postmortem internally on how we can do better next time. As we build a more welcoming and inclusive network we’ll continue to learn and to improve.

As we continue on this path to doing better, we want to thank you for everything you do and for being such a huge part of this community. We do value every one of you. We’ve seen your pings on chat and on the network and have been actively working to get you answers as soon as possible. Thanks for your patience. We never wanted to leave people wondering about their future in the sites they've worked very hard to moderate.

  • 750
    There's a process for removing moderators – user351483 Oct 3 at 15:46
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    'We never wanted to leave people wondering about their future in the sites they've worked very hard to moderate.' - and yet, even after this "apology", so many questions asked in the numerous posts have been left unanswered (leaving me further confused regarding whether this is it or if you'll follow up with more). Do you plan on answering them? If it took you three days to come up with this then you've really got more deeper problems that you think. – Script47 Oct 3 at 15:47
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    I'm not sure what the point of this is. SO fired a highly popular moderator for unclear reasons that may impact the community. This ignores the reasons the community is up in arms in the first place and apologizes for setting the house on fire late Friday instead of Monday, – Machavity Oct 3 at 15:53
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    And yet you continue to cast aspersions on a hugely respected and highly regarded Mod without offering a single shred of evidence or any context to back it up. Given her own posts on the subject, I'm sure Monica would be more than happy to have her transcripts released. – Kaz Oct 3 at 15:53
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    A more interesting question is the process for removing SE employees... In many ways, while Monica was a mod, she was (and still is) also a user, and much of what has been done to, and said about Monica in the past weeks violates the Be Nice policy. What happens to those people? Does the Be Nice policy apply to everyone except SE staff? – rolfl Oct 3 at 15:53
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    "repeatedly violating our existing Code of Conduct": citation needed. "CM’s repeated requests to change": citation needed. – Monica Cellio Oct 3 at 15:54
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    Am I mistaken in thinking that the moderator in question did not as much repeatedly violate the CoC, but instead repeatedly questioned a CoC not yet in effect? – Bart Oct 3 at 15:55
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    @MonicaCellio As often happens, there's a bit of a "he said, she said" ("they said, they said"?) angle to this because some amount of what happened was in your 100% private email correspondence with SE. In the interests of transparency, would it be possible for you to publish screenshots or copy-pastes of those emails? Or would you consider that violation of something / want to seek agreement from the other party first? – Rand al'Thor Oct 3 at 15:59
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    Unfortunately, this "apology" reads as insincere as the boilerplate farewells under Robert Harvey's and Gilles's resignation posts. I find it believable - though hard to believe, going by what I've read from Monica over the years - that it may have been necessary to remove her moderator status. But the way it was done is deplorable, and "our communications surrounding the decision could have been much better" has good chances to become the understatement of the century. – Daniel Fischer Oct 3 at 15:59
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    This is not enough. How can you apologize for shipping on friday on a thursday, even after everything that has happened? How can you say you've been actively working on answering messages and questions when you have probably the most downvoted post in meta, mostly due to your silence (with a canned response to make things worse)? This post is a grand amount of nothing and leaves users still in the dark, without feeling "loved" and definitely without feeling like being your "friends". – David DPG Oct 3 at 16:02
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    Thank you for posting an update. As many others point out it's not satisfactory, but it's a step in the right direction. Please continue communicating as the situation evolves. It's really helpful to know complaints are at least getting heard. – amon Oct 3 at 16:06
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    @Randal'Thor let's start with them telling us exactly what part of the current CoC they think I "repeated violated". There's a lot of discussion in that email including of deeply personal identity-background stuff, so I want to know what the charge is before I decide if that response would help. They didn't even tell me what they think I did. – Monica Cellio Oct 3 at 16:06
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    Too little, too late. If you actually own your mistake, reinstate Monica, then write up the new policy officially, and then work with mods to make sure it is followed, with appropriate (and escalating) consequences. – Cyn says make Monica whole Oct 3 at 16:09
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    What I find annoying is that the OP is not participating here after posting, as is pretty much expected from anyone posting. And in particular in this kind of issue - staying silent is a bad look. – Oded Oct 3 at 16:20
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    So this is the Welcome Wagon we were promised? Accusations of violations without proof? Character slander? This is hardly different than the generic cross posted answer I’ve seen on all the resignation posts. – Sterling Archer Oct 3 at 16:27

58 Answers 58

290

I believe that the new policy was made with good intentions, to protect a vulnerable group. But:

  1. Based on the previous statement, people may suspect that Monica is transphobic. Assuming that she isn't (I haven't seen evidence of her being that at all, neither in the moderator room nor elsewhere), doesn't she deserve a public statement explaining that she is not (suspected to be) transphobic? If you do have evidence, show it to the community, with Monica's permission; if she should object to this, then tell us so.

  2. Will Monica be allowed to go through this new process, and have a chance at not losing her moderatorship? That would seem only fair?

  3. As Snow says above, there is an existing process for demodding a moderator from a site. The site's other moderators are an important party to the process, as they should be. It is a very formal, conscientious, and meticulous process. Why wasn't (some variant of) this process followed? Or was it? If so, please give us more information.

  4. This post is only announcing the new process. As most big companies do, the rest is all SE's saying how everything was due to miscommunication. But that is not (mainly) the problem; it is SE's acts.

As to the policy change in question and its effects, I think people should consider voting for or against this answer above: https://meta.stackexchange.com/a/334266/156039

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    Most of the behavior, in the way it was presented, is in no way transphobic. Honestly, there's a lot of worse problems out there. Intentional misgendering and deadnaming (which rarely applies on here) is a hell of a lot worse than using a gender-neutral pronoun and names when in doubt – Zoe Oct 3 at 15:57
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    Regarding point 3, see my comment to Snow. Fellow moderators are not necessarily a party to the process of removing a misbehaving moderator. SE has always reserved (and on several previous occasions exercised) the right to remove a moderator all by themselves. – Rand al'Thor Oct 3 at 16:59
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    I think that there's ample evidence that Monica is NOT transphobic. There are (were?) multiple comments in TL indicating that she is very much accepting of who they are. – user194162 Oct 3 at 17:55
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    @GlenH7: That was also my impression. If SE think she was lying or hiding something, let them publish it. There is a reason why courts are public in the real world (save some exceptions): it is just for the accused, and it preëmpts speculation. – Cerberus_Reinstate-Monica Oct 3 at 18:00
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    FFS, it's nobody's goddamn business if Monica is transphobic or not. All that matters is her behavior on stackexchange. – James Reinstate Monica Polk Oct 3 at 23:36
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    I can only say "What new policy?" AFAIK nothing new has been published at all. – Andrew Leach Oct 4 at 13:54
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    @Zoethetransgirl I guess SE forgot that it operates globally and that some of its users come from countries where they still have the death penalty for homosexuality. I don't suppose they have a voice in all this. – roganjosh Oct 4 at 18:36
  • Most of the behavior, in the way it was presented, is in no way transphobic. Um, was that most..was not as in some..was ? – TaW Oct 5 at 10:32
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    @Zoethetransgirl: Monica commented with more details, that she does (or plans to) avoid all third-person pronouns after someone pointed out that avoiding only "they" would be unbalanced. And that usually 3rd-person pronouns are easy to avoid on SO without awkward sentences, especially for a skilled and practiced writer like her. +1 for this answer; things like the article in The Register did temporarily give me a less-positive impression of Monica, completely unfairly. – Peter Cordes Oct 6 at 10:04
169

While conducting this postmortem and deciding what to do better, I'd suggest it would be useful to keep communications open with the mod team, rather than leave us feeling abandoned. Give us status updates - they really help. Respond to some of the key queries (especially the heavily starred ones!)

We had no updates, no actual evidence that you were even listening.

The handful of CMs who tried to help couldn't provide us with info - they did their best and were definitely appreciated, but to us as a group it even felt like they were abandoned, pretty much.

Seriously, you need to involve an incident handler who understands communications, both with internal stakeholders (mods and CMs) and external stakeholders (members of the community, and the media and public) because as a company you keep hurting people with the way you do this.

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    Sanitized minutes from their meetings released to moderators under our standard confidentiality would at least let us know what points they are actioning. – StrongBad Oct 3 at 16:02
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    "We had no updates, no actual evidence that you were even listening." Nor even answers to any of Monica's or anyone else's questions or requests for clarification/examples, before or after Monica's dismissal. – Kevin Oct 3 at 16:24
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    There's supposed to be more coming, @Kevin. Hopefully some of it can defuse this tension, but I don't know how anything short of falling on your own sword would appease the communities right now. I wait to see what comes next. – fbueckert Oct 3 at 16:32
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    As a fact, she's got at least 3 super experienced CMs capable of doing damage control or helping her do so. She also has many people from the LGBTQ+ community as reports that can clearly support Monica if asked. I just don't think she bothered asking for help... – Sklivvz Oct 3 at 18:52
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    We do have the word postmortem. That means primarily: 'looking into a it', but it is now dead. Sad story, but a fact. Done. Now we wait for water under a bridge to pass? Have a wake perhaps? That is what my friend Freud suggested. – LаngLаngС Oct 3 at 19:26
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    @StrongBad "under our standard confidentiality" feels a little... I don't know--dead?--since the leaks. It makes me sad that we can't have nice things, like frank discussions with staff. – nitsua60 Oct 4 at 0:54
745
+100

I honestly think that this update is completely unacceptable. It seems extremely superficial.

We removed a moderator for repeatedly violating our existing Code of Conduct and being unwilling to accept our CM’s repeated requests to change the behavior.

Can you please tell us what in the current CoC she violated and how she was unwilling to accept repeated requests?

From what I've seen (and I'll go as far as to admit that I've read the leaks to try and understand the whole situation) she was asking questions, not outright saying she wasn't going to follow any of the proposed CoC.

But we must also acknowledge the way in which we implemented it and our communications surrounding the decision could have been much better.

Nope, sorry. We've heard this spiel many many many times before. Each time we've been assured that this will be the last or that you're working to improve but you've never followed through.

[...] but this is the first time we’ve had to suspend a moderator for a Code of Conduct violation

Once again, like your canned responses, you're throwing shade at Monica's character and actions regarding her violating the CoC but are unable/unwilling to provide any evidence/examples of it. It is totally reprehensible behavior, especially in an "apology".

We’re doing a postmortem internally on how we can do better next time. As we build a more welcoming and inclusive network we’ll continue to learn and to improve.

If you want to do better, it's simple. Folks have been repeating it for years. Communicate with us. I wrote a question on MSO regarding this very topic and would you look at that, it was ignored. You don't build a more inclusive site by completely isolating, ostracising, and disparaging your power-users.

We never wanted to leave people wondering about their future in the sites they've worked very hard to moderate.

You say that yet we had to find out the details from the scraps we could find (such as leaks or news outlets) and all we got were your canned responses.

In all honestly, this "apology" has very little substance. You've really not addressed any of the real concerns raised by the community during the period of radio silence.

I don't know about others, but what I really expected (after this long) was a complete breakdown of the what/why/when of the whole incident (anonymized, if need be). What we actually got is a poor apology and an attaboy.

Everyone has been cautioning each other to not throw fuel onto the fire over last couple of days and in all honesty I agreed with the sentiments at first but now you've gone an emptied the whole barrel.

You really don't seem to understand this community, your community. I'm insulted to think that you'd believe that we'd be satisfied with this.


FYI folks, it's a Thursday today, so expect radio silence until next Thursday I guess.

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    You could mention how a newspaper got more information from SE than we did. – marcellothearcane Oct 3 at 17:42
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    I expect radio silence till ... <checks notes> November 24th – jcolebrand Oct 3 at 17:44
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    @marcellothearcane eh I thought it was implied by: 'You say that yet we had to find out the details from the scraps we could find (such as leaks or news outlets) and all we got were your canned responses.' – Script47 Oct 3 at 17:44
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    Asked to confirm that Cellio was the moderator in question, a company spokesperson said, "Cellio (she/her) would not use stated pronouns, which violates our current CoC." Way to twist the knife. – shmosel Oct 3 at 20:04
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    @marcellothearcane I don't know if I'm not reading the newspaper properly, or if it's saying that Monica Cellio didn't want to use the "they" pronoun (though it also states that Monica was willing to not use pronouns people didn't want to be called with). Makes me think all this is happening because miscommunication might have happened at some point. – Clockwork Oct 3 at 21:25
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    @Clockwork there's definitely an escalation of reactions here. A butterfly flapped its wings. – marcellothearcane Oct 3 at 21:31
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    As a contributor to/fan of Stack Overflow, the thing I find most disturbing about this whole episode is that we still do not have concrete details about what part of the CoC (or future CoC) caused Monica's firing. That means anyone could be unknowingly violating it at any time, which feels very uncomfortable. – Nate Barbettini Oct 4 at 17:16
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    I have to echo @NateBarbettini's concerns. As a user who wishes to remain in good standing, I don't have to talk to people, but when I do, I have to ensure that I'm within the bounds of the CoC. All a vague code does is discourage me from talking to people in favor of only talking about the posts and only in objective terms. That's not necessarily a problem for a Q&A site, but it sure doesn't make anyone else (or me) feel more "welcome" here. – Cadence Oct 4 at 22:44
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    @Cadence worse: we were told in TL that not talking to someone wasn't an option. We don't have the option, per this new CoC as described there, to walk away to avoid the risk of saying something "wrong". – Monica Cellio Oct 6 at 17:06
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    @MonicaCellio I'm positive I know the answer to this question but did they ever mention how they'd moderate something like that? How would they know if someone had gone AFK and forgotten about a post as opposed to someone who's refusing to speak to someone? – Script47 Oct 6 at 17:09
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    @Script47 I asked how they would evaluate such cases, as it seems to require reading someone's mind to judge intent. I received no answer. (I didn't raise the AFK case specifically; I gave an example a conversation you step away from because it's getting tense.) – Monica Cellio Oct 6 at 17:27
176

We removed a moderator for repeatedly violating our existing Code of Conduct and being unwilling to accept our CM’s repeated requests to change the behavior.

I was there in the debate from the start and we discussed the new term of a new CoC to be more inclusive. Future tense was used.

I personally see it as an argument between two person that went bad and out of control, but her argument was valid. I never used he/she/they when I moderate, I always talk to the user directly. The debate started that way, simply.

I agree with you that a pronoun misuse would be against the be nice policy and Monica too agreed to that, but the debate was more than that in the end, it was talked to force the use of they or such pronoun.

Please publish that new CoC

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    "I personally see it as an argument between two person that went bad and out of control…" I wouldn't even say out of control. It went on for a while with both sides stubbornly rehashing the same points, but unless I missed something (possible, there was a lot to see), it seemed generally civil to me. – Kevin Oct 3 at 17:14
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    @Kevin I agree it was civil, but as it finished by a expelling, I told out of control for that reason. – yagmoth555 - GoFoundMe Monica Oct 3 at 18:22
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    I see your point, though I'd say that's more a disproportionate or nuclear reaction solely on SE's side, not directly the conversation itself. – Kevin Oct 3 at 19:01
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    I wonder how they can force users to use they instead of the username, especially on the sites like Stack Overflow на русском and Stack Overflow em Português which use, respectively, Russian and Portuguese. It doesn't seem there is the equivalent of the singular they English has, on those languages. – kiamlaluno Oct 5 at 17:57
143

I'm not sure how to take this to be honest. I can see that there's a willingness to learn from this and to be more transparent about this process going forward. I can see there's a sense of regret for not being better this time around.

What I don't see is an apology to Monica, and to the moderators who have felt they've been let down in trust from this whole issue.

You admit that you got things wrong. You really need to send an apology to Monica for doing things wrong. You don't have to reinstate her - you just had to admit to her personally that you treated her badly.

And you treated us badly in treating her badly.

And I continue to feel bad because you're not owning that fact.

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    Given this is the new SO PR staff, any expression of being willing to learn from this must be taken with the largest pinch of salt possible. – Robert Grant Oct 3 at 16:29
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    @RobertGrant - Aye. This is merely the pro-forma "non-apology apology" you get when someone's mucked up. I'm sorry you're upset and I'm sorry you've taken offense... but – Richard Oct 3 at 16:39
  • @RobertGrant Wasnt Sara Chipps appointed in July, almost 3 months ago? – Zev Spitz Oct 3 at 16:50
  • @ZevSpitz I've no idea, why? – Robert Grant Oct 3 at 16:59
  • @RobertGrant "Given this is the new SO PR staff" Not so new. – Zev Spitz Oct 3 at 17:14
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    3 months is new. I mean the new guard who've ushered in a variety of unrepentant groupthinky missteps. – Robert Grant Oct 3 at 17:28
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    "I can see that there's a willingness to learn from this and to be more transparent about this process going forward." what personally bothers me is this is included every time SE have to issue some sort of apology/statement. It's become a stock phrase by now and seeing as we get less and less communication I'm not convinced that this time it would be different. – VLAZ Oct 3 at 20:07
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    What I don't see is an apology to Monica, it's not an apology. They're sorry. They're sorry that this blew up and got as much attention as it did. – JAD Oct 4 at 8:28
  • @JAD It's a statement of regret. That's what this really is. There are fundamental communication problems happening here, so there's a lot of learning still to be done. – user351483 Oct 4 at 8:34
  • @RobertGrant This LinkedIn profile says "July 2018 -- 16 months". – ChrisW Oct 6 at 16:21
251

"repeatedly violating our existing Code of Conduct": citation needed. "CM’s repeated requests to change": citation needed.

Monica Cellio

  • 8
    To your original answer before edits: usual policy when a user is suspended is that reasons/details are not made public unless the user wants them to be. In this case, if there was private email communication between Monica and SE, she has the option to publish that. I've commented to ask her whether she would be willing to do so. It might clear up some things. – Rand al'Thor Oct 3 at 16:06
  • I found it. Still, you're just re-quoting someone's comment as an answer. – Sam I am says Reinstate Monica Oct 3 at 16:09
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    @Sam I felt it expressed my sentiment better than what I originally wrote. – Kaz Oct 3 at 16:09
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    @Randal'Thor violating the CoC would require public actions, which SE certainly should be able to point to, even if it were just to moderators. – Kevin Oct 3 at 17:17
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    @Randal'Thor that's at least mod-public, as I suggested. I find it difficult to believe that enough repeated violations of the CoC to de-mod her were all contained in the one email she sent SE. – Kevin Oct 3 at 17:23
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    I'd take it a step further: We want to thank you for everything you do and for being such a huge part of this community. We do value every one of you. [Citation needed] We’ve seen your pings on chat and on the network and have been actively working to get you answers as soon as possible. [Citation needed] We never wanted to leave people wondering about their future in the sites they've worked very hard to moderate. [Citation needed] – J.R. means 'Just Reinstate' Oct 6 at 10:43
107

While you're at it, will you please consider instituting an official process for reinstating moderators who have been removed? Such a process is sorely needed in this case, in particular.

  • 34
    Given the drama involved here, the well is likely tainted. It'd be somewhat ironic if the communities re-elected Monica in defiance of SE's decisions. It would, however, send an extremely pointed message. – fbueckert Oct 3 at 16:00
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    @fbueckert: I suspect a ton of people would vote her into a new moderatorship on half of the sites on the network if she ran... – Cerberus_Reinstate-Monica Oct 3 at 16:22
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    Severing this suggestion from the current situation: no. Or at least, not reinstatement by the community (cc @fbueckert) - maybe by a process involving internal communication with CMs. Some people are utterly unsuited for a moderator role and yet win landslide victories in mod elections before being removed (and might do so again if permitted to run again). – Rand al'Thor Oct 3 at 16:31
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    @Cerberus I'm not sure people forcibly removed from moderator positions are eligible for running again... that wouldn't make a ton of sense. Mods typically can ask to be re-instated at any time after stepping down, so if the company wanted her to be a mod again they could simply just reach out. – TylerH Oct 3 at 16:49
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    Violating the Code of Conduct to the extent that their moderator privileges had to be revoked really suggests that they are not suitable to be a moderator. If there is a disagreement on whether the ex-moderator should have been "fired", then that's a separate thing to investigate. – Daveoc64 Oct 3 at 17:13
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    when 20+ mods resigned already, I don't see how reinstating Monica would help. This is 100x bigger than firing one moderator. – Sklivvz Oct 4 at 6:19
  • When someone was improperly removed without the required process, there most certainly should be a process for reinstating them (even if in a suspended state) and beginning that removal process to see whether the suspension should be lifted or the removal should be re-done. – Dewi Morgan Oct 7 at 2:42
152

We didn’t follow that rule last week and as a result there was a lot of confusion over the weekend

Not just weekend. It's been a week since things started happening.

Still Stack Exchange didn't released enough details, which will clarify what led to removal of the moderator. As a company, you have the right to keep it confidential and we, users don't have any right to ask you to publish it. But Monica, gained a lot of trust among users across all SE sites she moderated and among other moderators. The tsunami of resignations you've seen is because of that. Thousands of people voted to elect her as a mod and she tried to reach up to their expectation.

You people took 1 week to release an official (incomplete) statement.

While you claim the site is moderated by the public, this isn't the right way to treat the users or mods. Even if you have the right to do whatever you want, you should understand that moderators are people, who have their own things and still they spend a lot of time to keep the site clean, without expecting anything in return.

As mentioned in one of my other answer, Monica didn't get anything by moderating this site. She may raised concerns regarding the new & yet to implement CoC. But she's a moderator on many sites and she may have to respond to queries from Millions of people in the community. It's not just her voice. It's the community's voice.

When she ask you something as a mod, she is not representing herself. She's representing the entire community

This isn't the right way to treat them.

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    And let's not forget we're still waiting for a proper followup to the illegal licensing change a month later – Lightness Races with Monica Oct 4 at 15:37
503

You're making some very serious accusations about Monica. You wrote:

We removed a moderator for repeatedly violating our existing Code of Conduct and being unwilling to accept our CM’s repeated requests to change the behavior.

Monica has presented her side of the story on various platforms by now, so I would expect Staff to release concrete proof (sanitized if it must be) about what exactly led to the removal.

Moderators generally scrupulously avoid casting aspersions on community members without presented proof, and do usually present proof if the target of a suspension makes a Meta post or presents their side of the story. If that is not the case, they usually refrain from casting any aspersions.

I would expect SE staff to abide by higher standards of behavior, so I expect some proof to be forthcoming. I'm not taking your word on this, as I've known and trusted Monica for a long time and she is directly contradicting you, and when it comes down to it in the absence of any evidence, I'm taking her word over yours.

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    That largely quote is congruent with how Monica presented the situation, it's just that opinions differ substantially on whether the current CoC mandates the use of pronouns. – amon Oct 3 at 16:10
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    @amon Not how I read it. "Repeated CoC Violations after being asked to stop" thats diametrically opposite to Monica's version of events. – Magisch Oct 3 at 16:47
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    If you keep saying in chat "a single person cannot be they, they is not an ok pronoun to use when referring to an individual" could that not constitute repeated violations? Honest question. – Kate Gregory Oct 3 at 16:53
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    @KateGregory I don't know, I haven't seen the CoC clarification they published, and I haven't seen any chat transcripts, I steered well clear of any leaks due to respect for the involved. I would expect, if that were the case, for SE to make that argument and support it with citations. This guessing game is unfair to Monica and pure character asassination imo. – Magisch Oct 3 at 16:55
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    According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, using 'they' in this manner is now accepted enough to be included in the dictionary (update as of a few weeks ago): merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/… – Phlarx Oct 3 at 19:23
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    In this case, @KateGregory, usage of singular "they" is highly likely to be influenced by fake linguistic rules that early English "linguists" came up with to try to turn the language into Latin 2.0, along with other fake rules made for various reasons, none of which have any actual basis in English usage and examples. It's just like how a lot of linguists hate splitting infinitives (note: actually a Latin spelling rule, Latin infinitives are 1 word but English ones are 2), or claim that a preposition is the worst thing to end a sentence with. Only, those ones don't have political baggage. – Justin Time - Reinstate Monica Oct 3 at 20:14
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    Monica is on the record as not prepared to use "they". The What If part is "repeatedly in chat" -- since SE says there were repeated problems. – Kate Gregory Oct 3 at 22:05
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    @KateGregory I don't see how it could be a violation of the current CoC, which is what SE (or at least Sara) alleges. I haven't seen the new one yet, so I can't say whether or not it could violate that. – reirab Oct 3 at 23:11
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    This has been discussed elsewhere. a lot. Refusing to use just one pronoun is not "accepting and respecting everyone's pronouns." I'm not going to keep going back and forth on that and explaining it over and over, @reirab. – Kate Gregory Oct 3 at 23:30
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    Among other places, she was quoted in the Register article as refusing to use singular they, also chairwoman. In one of the 400 or so other questions, answers, blogs, resignation posts and comment threads, you can find a number of people repeating that this is over a pre-refusal to ever use "they" for a single person. Writing around the problem only for one pronoun may seem find to you, but it is not fine to people who use that pronoun, many of whom you will also find in this whirl of information saying just that. – Kate Gregory Oct 3 at 23:39
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    @KateG - My take on your honest question: It sounds like Monica was discussing a hypothetical situation in a chat room. That doesn't sound like a "violation" to me. Similarly, sticking to one's viewpoint during a heated debate in a chatroom would hardly constitute a "repeated violation." At worse, her stance should have put her on a watch list for instances when she actually broke the Code of Conduct – but arguing that she would try to work around one interpretation of it? That seems more like a stretch and a grudge gone awry. – J.R. means 'Just Reinstate' Oct 4 at 18:39
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    @KateGregory I said I would treat everyone equally -- no singular they and also no he or she. I naturally write in a gender-neutral manner; this shouldn't be an issue. I almost never need third-person singular pronouns, but the new policy apparently is that I must change how I write to inject them. They didn't say that directly, but when I asked that question they first ignored me and then fired me, so I guess that's going to be the new rule? I don't know how they could even enforce it, because they have to decide that you could have used a word and chose not to - so, mindreading. – Monica Cellio Oct 4 at 22:33
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    Thanks, @MonicaCellio. I think refusing "they" while not refusing "he" or "she" would be othering. I think really awkward constructs to avoid pronouns would also be othering. It sounds like your plan wasn't a bad one. And as I have said elsewhere, even if you had planned only to other nonbinary people, that is still no reason for what unfolded after that. I hope this ends up resolved amicably. I admire your moderation on the sites we share, and that won't change. (I also hope you end up changing your mind on they, but that's for another medium.) – Kate Gregory Oct 4 at 22:38
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    @KateGregory when pronouns came up in TL maybe a year ago?, I didn't yet understand that using he or she but not they was a problem. That point was raised in the recent discussion, and once somebody actually said that (I don't remember that happening before) my reaction was approximately "oh, yeah, I see how that would be unbalanced, so I won't do that". On SE I rarely talk about specific individuals and when I do it's usually by name, OP, a link (e.g. "this answer"), and stuff like that. If I'm talking to someone then, of course, the pronoun is "you". I don't understand the problem here. – Monica Cellio Oct 4 at 22:48
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    Seems like it's all been over nothing. What a waste and what a lot of misery. Wish I could help in some way, @MonicaCellio – Kate Gregory Oct 4 at 23:25
123

Monica's repeated violations of the code of conduct were only that she kept saying she didn't want to use "they" as a single-person pronoun and she kept trying to find an alternate way to be respectful that would meet her needs (to not use "they") as well as meeting the needs of others to be respected.

I went back and read a lot of the discussions that came before her removal and in everything I read, Monica was very respectful in what she wrote.

So the only "violation" was that she kept trying to find an alternative to the use of singular they that would work for her and would be respectful to others who preferred it.

To me, it isn't disrespectful and it's not a violation of "be nice" - to say, "that doesn't work for me, is there an alternative? how about this? or how about if I do this other thing to try to find an alternative?"

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    It's also violate a CoC not yet in effect. – Andras Deak Oct 3 at 16:11
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    I think their argument is that by saying she didn't want to use "they" even when someone requested it, she was being "not nice." – Ward - Reinstate Monica Oct 3 at 16:12
  • @AndrasDeak I think it said that it was in effect internally, but I could be wrong. – User37849012643 Oct 3 at 17:46
  • @StephanS Initially, what was being violated was always referred to as an update to the CoC, later it was referred to as a clarification. Regardless, the violation was that it's hurtful or not nice that Monica kept wanting to discuss alternatives to using "they" (even when someone requested the use of "they"). – Ward - Reinstate Monica Oct 3 at 17:52
  • @Ward I got that but it's this quote- "We’re finalizing the policy internally now and will ship it ASAP.", I think the question after this quote does internally mean the policy was staff only, or was it staff and mods. – User37849012643 Oct 3 at 17:55
  • @StephanS Frankly, I've lost track. I would say that it was at first very clear that it was a future iteration of the CoC that she was/would be violating by avoiding the use of singular they. But I think it morphed into "you're not being nice when you said you won't use singular they, which violates the current CoC." – Ward - Reinstate Monica Oct 3 at 17:59
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    @Stephans Ward, not sure it's all that hard to understand - it's possible to violate current CoC in the course of a discussion about a future CoC. That seems pretty clearly to be what's being claimed. – Alex M Oct 3 at 18:03
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    @AlexM Sorry, this is spread over multiple comment threads... Monica did not refuse to use "they" in response to a request by someone to use "they." This was all in the context of: In the future, if someone says "please use 'they' when you need a pronoun for me," then you have to use that pronoun. Monica kept asking "If it comes up, is it ok if I find another respectful way to refer to someone?" and it was considered a violation to keep saying "I want to find an alternative." – Ward - Reinstate Monica Oct 3 at 18:11
  • @ward the thread we're mainly discussing it in meta.stackexchange.com/a/334264/622311 covers what is being suggested that she said that constituted the violation. Here I'm just saying I don't find the distinction between current/future policy at all confusing. – Alex M Oct 3 at 18:19
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    If this is the case, then the issue is a culture clash that has quite literally been centuries in the making. It would likely be the collision of the fake linguistic "never use singular 'they'" rule with the effects of a (relatively) sudden explosion in popularity of the desire for specific pronouns in a gender-neutral language, essentially driving the party in question's probable linguistic education headfirst into others' pronoun-preference, and leaving everyone unhappy because a square moose is neither circular nor a peg, and thus won't fit a round hole. – Justin Time - Reinstate Monica Oct 3 at 20:42
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    Perhaps useful to add: Monica commented with more details, that she does (or plans to) avoid all third-person pronouns after someone pointed out that avoiding only "they" would be unbalanced. That makes it crystal clear that "refusing to use they" doesn't mean she will ever use incorrect pronouns for anyone. I'm assuming it's a writing-style / English language usage issue for her (a former moderator of writers.SE even), not a problem with how some people self-identify. – Peter Cordes Oct 6 at 10:46
409

Four seconds before this Meta question was posted - literally, four seconds, - I amended a Worldbuilding meta post I had written a couple days, to state specific concerns I had about the entire situation. Here's what I added:

Now that it's been a few more days, and things have continued to snowball - about 35 moderators have either resigned in protest or gone on strike in relation to the chain of events - I thought I would elaborate a bit more on the things that bother me about the whole thing.

  • I'm bothered that an elected moderator was summarily dismissed without consultation with other moderators, as is the established procedure for cases where users raise severe complaints about a mod.
  • I'm bothered that Monica was dismissed based on opposition to a change in the Code of Conduct that had not yet been published or even finalized.
  • I'm bothered that, by Monica's account, this happened before discussions between her and Stack Overflow had concluded.
  • I'm bothered that this occurred less than an hour before the start of Shabbat, which, coupled with the start of Rosh Hashanah 48 hours later, meant that Monica would be almost entirely offline for 96 hours. Either this was intentional on Stack Exchange's part, or it was completely insensitive to Monica's religion, which is a major part of who she is and is well-known.
  • I'm bothered that this was done in a way that effectively shamed Monica and hurt her reputation.
  • I'm bothered that Stack Overflow has done essentially nothing to help trans moderators and others in the LGBT+ community. Mods network-wide have expressed strong support for formal sensitivity training, but this has yet to be implemented.
  • I am, further, bothered that the company has failed in some cases to act against certain users who have written posts and chat messages that are clearly transphobic. The users who make them should at the least be treated more harshly than Monica was, because she is not a transphobic person. This supports the idea that a double standard is being applied.
  • I'm bothered that the company has failed to make an adequate statement in response after more than five days. Responses to resignations and meta posts (e.g. this one) have been copied-and-pasted and say basically nothing of any substance.
  • I'm bothered that Stack Overflow talked with the Register and provided quotes for a crappy article that poorly explains most aspects of the sequence of events, while refusing to spend as much time communicating with the community.
  • I'm bothered that Stack Overflow does not seem to have acknowledged the human cost if all of this - on users, on moderators, and on their own employees.
  • I'm bothered that Monica - someone who has contributed an extraordinary amount to sites across the network, who has indeed contributed to efforts towards inclusion, who has represented religious and gender minorities online, who has done so much more good than harm - was treated like none of her contributions mattered.

Rereading all of this, I have to say, it is quite tempting to hang up my mod hat. I don't believe that Stack Overflow can adequately address all - perhaps even most - of these concerns. But I still believe, after this time, that I can do a better job advocating for the users on Worldbuilding and across the network as a mod than as a regular user - and I will continue to do so.

I was, really, really hoping that Stack Overflow, Inc.'s first public statement would address these. At the moment, it seems like this question addresses maybe the first one . . . and none of the others.

I'm not convinced SO cares about the human cost of the debacle. Boilerplate responses on resignations don't mean much. A fairly boilerplate response here on Meta doesn't mean much. Individual employees - folks I trust immensely - have expressed concern for everyone, but the company itself has not.

I'm not convinced SO had any appreciation for what Monica did for the network. She did an incredible amount for so many folks and so many groups, and there is no denying that she did more good than harm - even though I think her stance here, and some actions, caused folks pain. On balance, she did a heck-ton of good - and that has not been recognized.

I'm not convinced that they actually care about trans users, especially as they have not participated in any of the recent discussions about how those of us who don't identify as trans can help those who are. There are way more ways that they need help, in an environment often incredibly dominated by those of us who are cis.

And I'm honestly not convinced that I shouldn't resign.

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    re point 3 in the last part of your post (not the quote - after): at least two trans users participated in discussions here. I'm one of them. I also disagree - I believe they care, but I don't believe they've had any trans or non-binary representatives involved in creating the new CoC. Or, as I said elsewhere: good idea, horrible execution. – Zoe Oct 3 at 16:09
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    They will be sorry to see you go. – Andras Deak Oct 3 at 16:10
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    "Stack Overflow has done essentially nothing to help trans moderators and others in the LGBT+ community" - as a matter of fact, I have seen more transphobic and LGBT-phobic remarks in the three days since this kicked off than in the entire time I've been using Stack Exchange until now. I appreciate their efforts in trying to help but it seems to me that they've only made things worse. – F1Krazy Oct 3 at 16:10
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    @PrincessOlivia I've been amazed at the wherewithal of trans users in the community when it comes to shaping these policies. The emotional load it must place on you is incredible, and the fact that you're still here speaks volumes about your character and how much you care about the community - and I'm immensely grateful for it. I wish that SO had, well, put the same amount of effort in. – HDE 226868 Oct 3 at 16:11
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    @PrincessOlivia (cont.) A recurring theme is that y'all really shouldn't be forced to essentially lead these discussions. Many trans mods I've listened to have emphasized that it's emotionally exhausting, as I'm sure you well know. I really wish you had more support on this front - and especially in the face of some of the transphobic remarks I've seen folks make. – HDE 226868 Oct 3 at 16:13
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    And I totally agree: having trans folks involved - either company employees or users who volunteered to help out shaping this stuff - would be great. I am slightly cautious of criticizing on that front because I don't know for sure that private conversations between SO and trans users didn't happen - and as many are quite happy with the pending CoC update, that could very well have happened. But it doesn't seem like enough. And that's added to my frustration here. – HDE 226868 Oct 3 at 16:21
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    @HDE226868 That's my concern as well, and something I alluded to here: "[these discussions] have already put a heavy burden on marginalized users to continually justify themselves, when the CM team could be helping to facilitate that discussion more productively." The radio silence from SE staff has meant that a very small number of trans users have felt compelled to be the faces of these discussions, without any visible support from staff. – Zach Lipton Oct 3 at 17:06
  • @ZachLipton Yup, I saw that, and I agree 100%. – HDE 226868 Oct 3 at 17:09
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    "I'm not convinced SO cares about the human cost of the debacle." Ideologues never do, do they? And this entire mess appears to be ideologically driven, so... that's kind of to be expected. – Mason Wheeler Oct 3 at 20:35
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    At the moment, it seems like this question addresses maybe the first one And it doesn't even do that! It's like SE is entirely unaware that a process already existed. – Mr. Bultitude Oct 4 at 0:16
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    So well summarized. Thank you. – anongoodnurse Oct 4 at 3:25
117

This statement reads more like damage control than anything else. It doesn't really give us any new information about what happened, and the apology doesn't actually address what the community was upset about. It only apologizes for it happening on a religious holiday weekend.

It comes down to Monica having different values, which lead her to believe that forced top-down moderation on this subject wasn't the correct path, the Stack  Exchange network wasn't willing to respect Monica's choice to bring an opposing viewpoint to the conversation.

It's a noble goal to make an area safe for everyone to use, but can that be done by alienating a large population of the site's agency?

Monica was and is a polite person that believes in making her interactions with other users pleasant and friendly. To my knowledge, Monica didn't object to the use of preferred pronouns; Monica objected to the agency of moderators being challenged.

Quote by Monica Cellio :

I completely agree that it is rude to call people what they don't want to be called; knowingly misgendering someone is not ok.

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    Monica's values are not different. She supports the use of correct pronouns for everyone. She was questioning implementation. We may not agree with her choices on that but it's not the same as saying her values and culture are different. That's simply not true. – Cyn says make Monica whole Oct 3 at 16:10
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    @Cyn thank you for that information i'll fix my answer to reflect it – User37849012643 Oct 3 at 16:12
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    "Monica didn't object to the use of preferred pronouns; Monica objected to the agency of moderators being challenged." How do you know this? This is incredibly important evidence. – Alex M Oct 3 at 18:04
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    @AlexM "I completely agree that it is rude to call people what they don't want to be called; knowingly misgendering someone is not ok." - Monica Cellio – User37849012643 Oct 3 at 18:12
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    So, quoting one half of a dispute as evidence of the truth of the facts in dispute is not, let's say, super compelling. Changed my +1 to -1 as you're making assertions you don't actually know. – Alex M Oct 3 at 18:17
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    @AlexM I can only make statements about the information we have, Monica's post, and allegory from Cyn, if and when Stack Exchange comes out with evidence contradicting the statement I'll change my answer but I can only speak about the information that we have. – User37849012643 Oct 3 at 18:22
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    You're not 'speaking on' information. You're making factual claims that you can't back up. You didn't say 'Monica said she didn't...' You said 'Monica didn't.' – Alex M Oct 3 at 18:25
267

You start off with,

Friends

Any friend of mine that acted this way wouldn't be a friend anymore. It implies a level of respect that I don't see from the company, and haven't for years. So, sorry, but you don't get to call me a friend.

We removed a moderator for repeatedly violating our existing Code of Conduct and being unwilling to accept our CM’s repeated requests to change the behavior.

That's...a pretty unnuanced depiction of the event, and directly contradicts what Monica has said about the situation. It really doesn't fit what I saw, either. I'm making no judgement on whether it was the right or wrong thing to do; I'm not qualified, one way or the other, and don't have any of the history of what happened beforehand.

But as statements go...this one is lacking. It doesn't seem accurate in any sense.

We don't need a postmortem. We need a commitment to openness, transparency, and communication. Talk to us. We've been yelling for a good long time. All this talking at us isn't helping.

  • 6
    Note that the greeting "Friends," has been removed during various edits of the post. This was not done by Sara, but seeing that there were some changes made by Tim, I guess we can agree that the SE Team is OK with the removal. – Maarten Bodewes Oct 4 at 14:29
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    I wrote that comment because I was looking in vain for the - now removed - greeting and wondered what happened to it. This was not a criticism of your post in any sense. I was just trying to explain what happened to it for others having the same question. – Maarten Bodewes Oct 4 at 14:57
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    I would say that the removal speaks volumes, in and of itself. The company no longer sees its community as friends, but as neutral or (more likely, given the company's actions) enemies. – Justin Time - Reinstate Monica Oct 5 at 22:18
  • 2
    Whenever someone calls me "my friend", I instantly get suspicious about their means. – Martin Zeitler Oct 6 at 7:09
1408
+50

Here's what I was hoping for:


On behalf of Stack Exchange I want to apologize to all of you.

I messed up.

When I made the call to terminate Monica's moderator relationship, I believed that it needed to be done at that moment, and in the manner it was done.

I was wrong.

Through my actions, I hurt Monica's reputation. I hurt our volunteer moderators. And, I hurt you, the community.

I'm sorry.

Going forward, for cases where there are community or staff concerns about a moderator's actions, we'll be following a new process where we endeavor to give the accused a fair hearing and the opportunity to defend themselves, in private. These proceedings will be transcribed and made available if the accused chooses for them to be.

We will not make a public statement on the matter other to say "We've elected to terminate our relationship with <the accused>. We wish them well and want to thank them for their service in helping us build a better community."

We are looking closely at our internal process. Five days to get out an apology of this magnitude was too long for such an important event, and we're going to figure out a way to respond faster and better.

Thank you for sticking with us, and I'm sorry I let you down.


Disclaimer: This is not a statement from Stack Exchange, this is what I wish they had written. I have no authority to speak on behalf of Stack Exchange, nor would I ever claim to do so.

  • 306
    This would have been an apology and course of action that would have probably calmed this whole controversy in a matter of hours. Instead, it's only really heating up. I don't have much emotional energy left to get out the pitchforks, but you know, it's saddening. – Magisch Oct 3 at 16:18
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    You're hired ... – rene Oct 3 at 16:34
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    For how much I may have disagree with you, on this one I thank you. – Tensibai Oct 3 at 16:48
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    One possible addendum to this excellent hypothetical apology: Once finalized, Monica will also receive the fair hearing following the procedures we outline in the very near future – Acinom Etatsnier Oct 3 at 17:09
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    Responding here as it is the top post. We aren't going to re-litigate the past. We can't share more details as they involve real people, both moderators and people that work here. What we can say now is that we will do better in the future. We'll be clarifying the CoC and putting out processes for how to remove moderators as well as one to appeal a removal ASAP. – Sara Chipps Oct 3 at 17:53
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    @Sara if you could review your post to avoid comparing the action to software delivery that be cool. It's a lack of human respect to treat removing a moderator as a software deployment – Tensibai Oct 3 at 18:00
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    @SaraChipps♦: Why can't you post the messages by Monica that made you condemn her, with her permission? I don't see why that isn't possible. It would be justice for her, and it would squash speculation. It would help SE's cause. – Cerberus_Reinstate-Monica Oct 3 at 18:02
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    SaraChipps - This is the top post because it's an elegant mea culpa, something that many of us in the community were waiting for the better part of a week to hear. In contrast, your original post seems like you're just digging in your heels, much like your follow-on comment two hours later. @Tensibai - Good point; maybe the Director of Q&A should consult with the Director of Marketing. – J.R. means 'Just Reinstate' Oct 3 at 18:05
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    @SaraChipps I truly appreciate your response on the matter and respect that you have continued to contribute to this topic. We aren't going to re-litigate the past. Many would argue that any litigation occurred in Monica's case. This is based on her own posts expressing confusion in why she was removed. Given the amount of requests for information from the community, refusing to address it comes across as a sign of suppression not of solidarity from SE. I would urge you to reconsider that for the sake of the company not even for the sake of Monica. – Acinom Etatsnier Oct 3 at 18:41
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    @SaraChipps, we have no reason to believe you'll do better in the future if you refuse to even try to do better in the current case. And the idea that you can't share evidence because it involves real people is pretty absurd, particularly when Monica is specifically requesting that evidence be presented -- that strongly implies that you're only holding it back to avoid further embarrassment on the part of the other party who sacked Monica in the first place. – Nate S - Reinstate Monica Oct 3 at 18:42
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    @SaraChipps What we can say now is that we will do better in the future is not an apology! And you are not doing better NOW why should we believe anything will change in the future? – user148287 Oct 3 at 18:49
  • 153
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    @SaraChipps "We're not going to re-litigate the past" means you're not going to be accountable. Period. – user141160 Oct 3 at 20:28
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    @SaraChipps, if you've truly read the feedback, you also know that a whole lot of people are not going to stick around for you to eventually earn back trust. Meanwhile, you're still failing to offer any real apology, nor are you answering any of the very good clarifying questions many users have asked. Stonewalling is not a great way of building trust, and frankly, with as badly as this is being handled, even if you intend to do better in the future, you're not inspiring a lot of confidence that you're interested in or capable of doing so. – Nate S - Reinstate Monica Oct 4 at 0:18
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    @SaraChipps if you mean what you say about doing better in the future, you need to start by doing right by me now. – Monica Cellio Oct 4 at 0:53
75

We removed a moderator for repeatedly violating our existing Code of Conduct

Can you give us some info on this? Where exactly in the existing Code of Conduct is this?

being unwilling to accept our CM’s repeated requests to change the behavior

Again, I'd like some more information. What did the CM request? Why was the request not accepted?

we will release an official process around removing moderators

You already have one.


Thank you for this response in general. I understand that it's hard for you to cooperate with the community, and I appreciate the effort that you put forward to do so.

To the pessimists out there: No, this is not meant to be snarky. I genuinely mean this.

636

Your actions have harmed the Lavender (LGBTQ+) Community here at SE.

I have taken a leave of absence effective today. This means Writing.SE has no active moderator.

As a queer user I used to feel safe here on SE. Monica's skillful and caring moderation was a large part of why. Now I don't.

If you care about the safety and well-being of your Lavender moderators, step up to make things right. This faux-apology just adds fuel to the fire.

More information in my Writing Meta post.

  • 62
    Never heard the term before: What's "the Lavender Community/users"? LGBTQ+? – Zoe Oct 3 at 16:22
  • 9
    @PrincessOlivia I'd never heard of the term either until I saw Cyn using it, but yes, Lavender = LGBTQ+. – F1Krazy Oct 3 at 16:29
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    I have seen a trans mod resign because of this "language policing". So I think you are absolutely right. I am one of those other letters, and I thank (metaphorical) God on my bare knees that SE didn't decide to make an extreme policy inflaming everyone against my letter. – Cerberus_Reinstate-Monica Oct 3 at 16:41
  • 2
    @PrincessOlivia 'lavender' is a fairly old term for what is now called LGBT+. – marcellothearcane Oct 3 at 17:01
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    Lavender is a new and old term and is inclusive without relying on people to remember which letters are now being used. Not everyone likes the term "queer" so I use it for myself but try to avoid it as a general term. – Cyn says make Monica whole Oct 3 at 18:14
  • 6
    I upvote for the clarity of expression (of course) and your reasons make sense, but I want to downvote because you're awesome AND this makes the writing.SE community diamondless. – April --Un-Slander Monica-- Oct 3 at 18:39
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    This. I've been pretty shocked at how bad I've felt over the last week. I'm pretty fortunate to not be personally affected by slurs, but I think something about all this has taken me back to 14 yr old me, too scared and too internally-conflicted to have a voice in all this, just sitting on the sidelines and seeing the "meta-implications" (?) about how big and contentious this all still is (and it wasn't really anything close to as bad before SE stepped in to make me feel "welcome"). Leaving the whole thing to speculation for so long left so many interpretations of what is going on. – roganjosh Oct 3 at 19:03
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    @roganjosh If SE's intention is to make LGBTQ+ people feel safer & more welcomed, they've sure done it in a pretty strange way. With allies like that, who needs enemies? ;) Also see called2voyage's answer. – PM 2Ring Oct 3 at 20:06
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    See also this LGBT+ mod's resignation message: codereview.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/9355/… I am vulnerable in that I no longer trust that the SE staff will tolerate even small mistakes. I look at the consequences of a mistake now and it scares me. If what happened, and is happening, to Monica were to happen to me, I would lose my reputation, it would have negative impacts on my relationships with friends and family, it would impact my career, and future job prospects. ... – Cerberus_Reinstate-Monica Oct 3 at 20:55
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    ... In my opinion, Stack Exchange has not protected Monica at all. In fact, Stack Exchange has actively targeted, marginalized, and "branded" Monica (on the site and with the media). I no longer trust Stack Exchange to "have my back". – Cerberus_Reinstate-Monica Oct 3 at 20:55
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    She [Monica] said the moderator linked to her question and called her a bigot sounds like someone else violated the COC tbh – Tas Oct 3 at 23:21
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    Thank you Cyn, Cerberus and roganjosh, for expressing my feelings about this better than I could. I've been in state of near-shock all evening (having only just learned about it), cold and almost shivering. I'm not sure I'll sleep tonight, but I do feel better for knowing I'm not the only one who feels viscerally threatened by bureaucratic measures that are supposedly taken to help "people like me" (I'm vaguely trans - I can't put it more clearly than that), but only serve to victimise good people and stir up even more prejudice, ill-feeling and misunderstanding all round. Sad and frightening. – Calum Gilhooley Oct 3 at 23:32
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    @Cerberus: To clarify -- rolfl isn't saying that (s)he is LGBT+; rather, (s)he's saying that (s)he has close family and friends who are LGBT+. (Not that it matters. I'm gay, which I suppose makes me "LGBT+", but that doesn't give me a magical ability to never mess up when it comes to trans issues -- or even when it comes to gay issues, since, I mean, no two people have had exactly the same life experiences or will see things the same way. In a world where SE employees do what they did to Monica, I'm under no illusion that being gay would somehow make me immune.) – ruakh Oct 4 at 0:45
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    @CalumGilhooley I'd say you are pretty eloquent about this issue yourself :) I totally agree with you; it was SE that pulled the trigger on this and, if they had any understanding about the actual situation they were supposedly defending, they had every opportunity to figure out their response before they pulled the trigger. Instead, I fear that they took a cheap shot for popularity. Real life just is not like this. I feel so much empathy for Monica in this, not some sense of being defended. – roganjosh Oct 4 at 8:08
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    We need a honest inclusion, not a forced inclusion. To me the self-designated term "queer" communicates full self-acceptance, which makes it easy to accept for others, than this LGBT letter soup. – Martin Zeitler Oct 6 at 6:49
194

So we've waited (nearly) a week to get.. a slightly longer version of the same boilerplate nothingness we had previously. Strange that it took this long to respond to the community (if this can be classed as such) but significantly less time to respond to The Register.

Nice to see you putting your "friends" first.

  • 12
    There is more coming, apologizing here was our first step. We've been working hard. – Sara Chipps Oct 3 at 16:22
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    If only this were a proper apology, it would have gotten a better reaction, @Sara – Oded Oct 3 at 16:27
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    Sorry @SaraChipps but if it takes ~6 days to produce a "first step" that is (and I'm being generous here) at most an hour's work. I'm not sure that inspires confidence if this is what "working hard" on something means at SO Inc. – motosubatsu Oct 3 at 16:31
  • 12
    @RobertGrant I imagine she and most others in the company have been working hard. I'm not a fan of all this, but as much as the "users' side" is demanding undertanding and compassion, the same should be shown to the "other side". The past week hasn't been easy for anyone, except perhaps those who enjoy watching fires. If we demand respect, we also have to show it. – Cindy Meister Oct 3 at 17:05
  • 4
    @SaraChipps Hang in there; work through it and come out a stronger and more experienced human being at the end of the tunnel. Believe in the good intentions of all involved... – Cindy Meister Oct 3 at 17:07
  • 33
    @SaraChipps I'm sorry to say that, but you didn't do a very good job apologizing. As your post stands, it adds more to the current sentiment of incompetence towards all of this than anything else. – T. Sar - Reinstate Monica Oct 3 at 17:10
  • 9
    @Sara I gotta hand it to you, this "apology" of yours is on a race to be the most downvoted post on all of meta, reaching a dept that would go even further beyond your other boilerplate post. – reg Oct 3 at 17:30
  • 11
    "The past week hasn't been easy for anyone" if it's not been easy for anyone, but one particular set of people (the people paid - and failing - to be any good at all at this) caused it, then that's still absolutely terrible. Respect is earned by years of diligent, thoughtful volunteerism. See also: Monica. – Robert Grant Oct 3 at 17:31
  • I am not sure all understand the sarcasm of this answer. (Though TechLead's is much harder.) – Peter Mortensen Oct 3 at 17:35
  • @reg: Downvoting this question is a very bad idea. It only brings Meta one step closer to being shut down (as in cease to exist). – Peter Mortensen Oct 3 at 17:38
  • 1
    @PeterMortensen I don't believe that to be the case because it seems there are more downvoted questions on other meta sites by staff – User37849012643 Oct 3 at 17:49
  • 23
    @SaraChipps ... apologizing here was our first step. ... we are still waiting for that apology, because this is not it, not matter how many times you put in in the title and say that is what it is, it is a non-apology, actually it is about 8 non-apologies. Every time you post it is a non-apology. I am ASD, I am an expert on making real apologies at this point. – user148287 Oct 3 at 19:10
  • 2
    If that is the case, @PeterMortensen, then how should the community express dissatisfaction with what they consider to be a very poor communication attempt (and the company efforts related to it), and express their opinion that the company needs to do a better job here? This isn't snark, or an attempt to shut you down, or anything of the sort; I'm seriously unsure of what other means you expect us to provide feedback with, if we eschew the feedback mechanism that forms the core of the entire network. – Justin Time - Reinstate Monica Oct 3 at 20:30
  • 9
    @SaraChipps There is no apology here. Again, a requirement of an apology is to make amends for or undo the past bad action. You have not done so. You do not even attempt to apoplogize to Monica for not following the existing system and punishing her for asking questions about new rules that weren't actually in effect yet. Let's be clear here: this level of mistake suggests you cannot do your job, so you need to be contrite and trying to fix it. Most companies would have fired you for this. – trlkly Oct 4 at 2:01
  • 1
    @SaraChipps any idea of the general timeframe of the next step? – Brandon_J Oct 4 at 16:41
1038
+550

This has generated a lot of attention already, but I'll add my own two cents.

Stop lying to your users.

We removed a moderator for repeatedly violating our existing Code of Conduct and being unwilling to accept our CM’s repeated requests to change the behavior.

No, you didn't. You removed a moderator for putting forth an opinion that suggested she might in future violate a provision of the code of conduct that was not yet written. Whether or not that moderator had violated the code of conduct on previous occasions is irrelevant - that's not what you removed her for. Whether or not that was the correct decision, and whether or not you stand by it, is also irrelevant - you've caused a hell of a mess around the network, and the least you owe your users now is a truthful account of what you did to cause it.

  • 331
    @PeterMortensen I was there. Yvette wasn't. – ArtOfCode Oct 3 at 17:44
  • 12
    Previous CoC violations are irrelevant to a claim of repeatedly violating the existing CoC? 0_o This doesn't make any sense. – Alexander O'Mara Oct 3 at 18:53
  • 40
    @AlexanderO'Mara It makes sense in the context of this answer, which is saying that the reason she was banned was not due to previous CoC violations; but instead due to a potential violation of a future code. The answer is obviously written from the point of view where ArtOfCode knows the ban was not for past CoC violations; which I can't evaluate. It's self-consistent though, so it makes sense in what it is trying to say. – JMac Oct 3 at 19:12
  • 158
    If it helps any of you questioning his points, I completely corroborate his account. The removal had nothing to do with past incidents. – James Oct 3 at 19:55
  • 114
    I'd additionally point out that of course previous incidents weren't the problem here because Monica was a freaking ideal user/moderator. – James Oct 3 at 20:23
  • 12
    @James That's more of an emotional argument than a factual one. We could do with a lot less emotion and a lot more facts. – Alexander O'Mara Oct 3 at 21:53
  • 27
    @AlexanderO'Mara I can't back them up publicly, because the information I'm working on is in the TL, and I'm not about to release those transcripts. Sara can see them, though. – ArtOfCode Oct 3 at 22:23
  • 40
    @AlexanderO'Mara Yes. I am drawing that line. I have drawn it pretty clearly here in this post. You just refuse to believe that I am telling you the truth. That may be understandable, given that I'm not able to present the evidence I have, but hounding on about it rather than forming your opinion and moving on is - get this - not a good look. – ArtOfCode Oct 3 at 22:45
  • 64
    @AlexanderO'Mara "If you are going to call people liars about their motives, you should be able to back it up, or at a minimum admit you cannot know for certain." As ever, there's more than two options. Option three: I can know for certain, but I am not at liberty to share the information that allows me to. – ArtOfCode Oct 3 at 22:51
  • 48
    @AlexanderO'Mara I believe ArtOfCode means to imply that he knows the reason for the removal because the reason was stated, clearly, in TL, as part of the announcement of Monica's firing. ArtOfCode can clarify if that's a correct interpretation. If it is, I don't think he is failing at all to distinguish between what he knows and what is speculation. – Mark Amery Oct 3 at 22:52
  • 29
    @MarkAmery is correct. – ArtOfCode Oct 3 at 22:52
  • 12
    @AlexanderO'Mara No, I did not say that. I said I will not discuss what was said in TL, because I am not at liberty to do so. I can back up what I have said. I cannot do so publicly. – ArtOfCode Oct 3 at 22:54
  • 11
    @AlexanderO'Mara Yes, and if those were part of the decision making process, when SE told moderators "the reason" for what happened, it should include those factors. Similarly, when telling the community "the reason" for what happened, we would expect it to include the factors that the moderators were told. If not, either one or both parties have been lied to. Either one set of us was given a false reason, or both parties were; because there were multiple reasons, and each party was just told about "the reason" which omitted other reasons. It's at least a lie by omission. – JMac Oct 4 at 0:01
  • 26
    @AlexanderO'Mara ... They don't have to go into detail. They told the moderators some specific reason that supposedly was not "repeated CoC violations". They told us the reason was "repeated CoC violations", with wording that heavily implies that there were no additional factors. These two aspects alone mean someone was lied to, either by omission or deliberate lies. With the information provided to us, we were likely to reach a completely different conclusion compared to the information the moderators had. Each side got opposite information. Either we're being misled or mods were. – JMac Oct 4 at 1:07
  • 67
    And they have, thus far, refused to show me (a) the alleged instructions/warnings from CMs and (b) subsequent CoC violations. – Monica Cellio Oct 6 at 17:09
1110

Monica said:

  • I'm completely onboard with a rule that says that if you use pronouns you have to use the designated ones (if known). Of course! Don't call people what they don't want to be called. But when I brought up writing in a gender-neutral way, which I do by default as a professional writer who needs to steer clear of gender-related problems, I was told that using gender-neutral language is misgendering. Employees only implied that (other mods argued for it), but when I asked I got no answer, and then fired.

    -- source

  • I specifically asked if writing in a gender-neutral way -- which for me means avoiding third-person singular pronouns in favor of plurals, names, other references, or other sentence structure -- was ok. Some mods told me it's not and Sara dismissed my question. That reaction astounds me, because many people including you and I write GN now!

    -- source

  • I got one piece of email explaining why they're making this change, I replied with questions (including the one, again, about whether they mean when using pronouns or something more proactive), and got no further reply, though I was promised one (more than once). Instead, four days later, they fired me.

    -- source

Does any of this violate the CoC? Or is Monica leaving something out in her version which explains why you fired her?

There's a big disconnect between your (SE's) version of the story and Monica's. Are you accusing her of lying, or was there a massive miscommunication on (presumably) your part which explains why she was so surprised at the firing?

  • 736
    I even sent email in response to the firing suggesting that there had been a miscommunication and, please, let's fix this. They could have saved face. No response. SE has not responded to any email from me since September 23. – Monica Cellio Oct 3 at 16:37
  • 43
    @MonicaCellio No surprise SE do not responds to you since Sep. 23. They are notorious for not responding anything to anyone for years. – Victor Stafusa Oct 3 at 21:31
  • 79
    @VictorStafusa well, they stopped mid-conversation; this wasn't the usual case where you contact them and hear nothing at all. I'd received one message and replied to it with questions. Then crickets. (Receipt was confirmed and there were promises of a reply.) – Monica Cellio Oct 3 at 21:36
  • 59
    I was going to post something similar and say "So it boils down to your word vs. Monica's word, and I take Monica's word in this", essentially. No need now. Totally agree, and disgusted with SE staff. – Shadow The Burning Wizard Oct 3 at 22:04
  • 6
    @MonicaCellio would you want to be reinstated, if it were offered/tendered ? No need to answer, but could be a worthy use of your time thinking about beforehand. Don't make a snap-decision. – Criggie Oct 4 at 1:16
  • 23
    @Criggie I already have an answer to that question, but no need to announce it here now. (It is non-obvious and nuanced.) – Monica Cellio Oct 4 at 1:19
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    @MonicaCellio In another situation that puts SE in very bad light, they have not responded to me regarding their relicensing (which I believe to be illegal). Quite the opposite — they suspended my account on meta SE for a week. Needless to say, communication is not their strong suit, especially when they know they're in the wrong. – jhpratt GOFUNDME RELICENSING Oct 4 at 2:12
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    When I saw the meta post I thought to myself "Oh SE, please let this NOT be related to gender and angry mobs". How naive can one be? – tfrascaroli Oct 4 at 8:53
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    @tfrascaroli very, apparently. It's almost like they thought that social media trends could be extrapolated to a platform that's more-akin to real life. – roganjosh Oct 4 at 10:20
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    [1] For people (aka @SaraChipps♦ & friends) who are confused as to how the recent actions of the SE company have done harm to LGBT+, allow me to explain. The SE company dogmatically established a new Code of Conduct rule that the community didn't ask for under the pretense of it being something that the LGBT+ community needed. In the process and under the guise of enforcing this new CoC (that hadn't yet come into effect), it tarnished the character and damaged the mental health of a well-respected leader of this site as well as disrupted the health of our community -- under the pretense that – 8protons Oct 4 at 17:51
  • 90
    [2] this was for the LGBT+ community. Make no mistake: the "torrent of vitriol against every single one of us [LGBT+]" (@Cyn♦) is never justifiable but the actions of the SE company are not without blame for acting as a match that started the fire. Similar to how capitalist ideologies are attacked due to the extremism of fascism or how communist dictators ride on the ideas of socialism to take power, SE used "protecting" the LGBT+ community as their excuse for toxic behavior and abuse on a moderator that was unwarranted. – 8protons Oct 4 at 17:51
  • 10
    @jhpratt SE is just a typical corporation. Their default strategy is to shut down all communication and wait for the storm to calm. There won't be a better response unless Joel personally intervenes, which is unlikely. – JonathanReez Supports Monica Oct 4 at 23:45
  • 4
    @jhpratt corporations are especially likely to go radiosilent when legal issues are involved. They won't talk to anyone without a lawyer. – JonathanReez Supports Monica Oct 5 at 0:33
  • 31
    You're telling me this was a fight about singular they? ... what planet are these people from; one where English is a second language? – Mazura Oct 5 at 6:12
  • 15
    Why doesn't Monica start a fund-me-whatever campaign and raise some money to litigate against Stack Exchange? That would be a hoot. The publicity would be fantastic for SE, and it would be exciting socially for those on all sides of the underlying issue. (Note - I do not know who Monica is but the whole tale seems juicy and ripe for exciting legal battle.) – Fattie Oct 5 at 15:42
208

We removed a moderator for repeatedly violating our existing Code of Conduct...

I take issue with this. All the indications (most of them visible only to mods) are that the Code of Conduct is changing and that Monica violated the updated, unpublished Code of Conduct. I suppose you can argue that Monica violated the current CoC if you squint really hard at it but there are several points against that argument:

  1. Your initial announcement that the CoC was changing and that we would have to abide by it used the future tense. Indeed, the very fact that you are planning to change the CoC is an indication that the CoC did not cover the issue at hand or, at the very least, that it was unclear. Even if you merely admit that the current CoC is unclear then why wouldn't you give a respected moderator the benefit of the doubt and wait until she (and we all) saw the clarified CoC and decided whether or not to abide by it before summarily and coldly removing her as a moderator?
  2. Last January there was a discussion in the moderators' Team about the exact issue which is triggering the CoC update.1 I won't post exact quotes from it since it's mod-only, but the post with the highest score advocated essentially the same course of action which Monica was removed for taking (no points for guessing who wrote it). Furthermore, the Teams discussion would have been pointless if the existing CoC actually covers the issue at hand -- if Monica violated the current CoC over this issue then any SE employee could have and should have immediately answered that the CoC already covers the issue and no discussion is required. The fact that we moderators had the discussion is strong evidence that the current CoC does not cover this issue. Morever, three SE employees posted an answer in that discussion and not one of them said that the CoC already covers it (one of them specifically says that the employee's answer is not an edict, another asks us moderators to bear with the company as the employees try to figure it out).

It would be much more accurate to say that you removed a moderator for insisting that she would refuse to abide by the CoC update you were planning to release, and that you pre-emptively removed her. Even that would be questionable, though, since you can hardly hold someone to abide by a CoC before you've actually released the text of it.


1Link to the discussion for those with access is here.

  • 19
    Monica says that she was asking questions about the exact requirements of the updated CoC, and in the middle of that they unexpectedly fired her instead of replying. – Rand al'Thor Oct 3 at 16:40
  • 50
    One point I've not seen raised yet: we probably should be asking the hard questions before a new policy is adopted and published. Otherwise, we'll get policies that are riddled with problems that no one saw coming, because it wasn't sufficiently analyzed. – J.R. means 'Just Reinstate' Oct 3 at 17:09
  • 11
    @J.R. Yes, Monica and other moderators have been asking hard questions about implementation details. That's basically why I've suspended my activity as a moderator -- I want to know exactly what we're being required to enforce before I actually try to enforce anything. – Null Oct 3 at 17:20
  • Monica didn't even violate the new CoC. She merely questioned it. – A. Donda Nov 15 at 15:05
70

This is far from the first time a moderator has been removed. I know of at least two others, apparently there are even more, according to:

I can think of at least one moderator that was removed due to sharing PII publicly - years ago, so this is not a "first", as claimed here. – Oded

One moderator was even removed for violating the law in quite an obscene way, let alone the Code of Conduct (née Be Nice) policy.

Did you refer back to any of these events, or ask the CM team if there were any prior moderator removals, in order to guide your efforts during this process?

I imagine that anyone of Tim Post, Robert Cartaino, Shog9 (which might even be his real name), or Jon Ericson ought to have been able to help there, at least.

If you did not, will you commit to searching for and relying on precedent for future situations?

  • 10
    There is a very, very formal process for removing a moderator. – enderland Oct 3 at 16:35
  • That mod (I'll avoid naming) was removed for that specifically? I thought he was removed because he went inactive. (which of course we found out why later) – Mysticial Oct 3 at 16:43
  • Re "Shog9 (which might even be his real name)": No, see Stack Exchange podcast episode 5, 2011-05-18 (episode 91 if the original series, Stack Overflow podcast, is counted), from 11 min 04 secs. Dubious source. – Peter Mortensen Oct 3 at 17:56
  • 8
    @PeterMortensen It's a jest. – TylerH Oct 3 at 18:09
  • Ah, that makes sense. – user474678 Oct 3 at 21:02
  • 3
    [offtopic] "One moderator was even removed for violating the law in quite an obscene way" - I've heard of this a couple times before, but never found any more information (nor cared too much to look it up, for that matter). People usually mention it, but feel too awkward to give any more detail. I just wonder, when did it happen, and what the crime was. Can you tell us? – Marc.2377 Oct 4 at 2:42
  • 4
    @Marc.2377 The Answer From a Mod – JBis Oct 5 at 0:24
  • I think you mean precedents, not precedence. – phoog Oct 6 at 5:07
  • @phoog Yes, I always seem to get those two mixed up. – TylerH Oct 7 at 1:54
39

What is the whole story? This post only makes me more confused!

After reading the comments, I got a name, then I did some search, and get some posts, after reading the following answer: https://meta.stackexchange.com/a/333773

My intuition told me that, this Monica is a pretty good person, who can stands up towards those powers.

I have seen more than one other moderators who are mediocre, and without any sense of justice.

And, from her posts, I personally think Monica is not one of them. She got the right spirit !!!

She is brave and got a good sense on how to improve the community.

You can see from her posts that she doesn't hesitate to tell the truth even though other people who are in power don't agree.

And, that might be the major reason why she got fired.

I support her!

  • 13
    So from this I get you want to say that out of context, this was extremely weird, and when you went looking for context, you were shocked, and while you agree that moderators can sometimes overstep boundaries, you feel like Monica wasn't likely to be one of them or, you're certain she wasn't? (I think the down votes here are because that's not clear. This appears to be an answer, but if you could revise it a little, it would certainly help others understand) – Tim Post Oct 3 at 17:21
  • @TimPost Thank you , I have revised the answer, hope it's better now – Eric Wang Oct 3 at 17:33
  • Re "the right sprite": Do you mean "the right spirit"? – Peter Mortensen Oct 3 at 18:04
  • @PeterMortensen Yes, apology for the typo, just fixed it. – Eric Wang Oct 3 at 18:07
  • 7
    @TimPost thanks for still helping peoples to clarify their posts. Hug to you if you accept it :) – Tensibai Oct 3 at 18:46
86

When I first read What a very bad day at work taught me about building Stack Overflow’s community, I agreed to most of the statements and still do.

I thought you would improve our community for the best, but apparently not.

You didn't even apologize to Monica and the rest of the community

Monica did an excellent job for the community as a moderator and there is no reason why Monica was fired for not following the standards under the unreleased CoC.

Release the new Code Of Conduct and apologize to us.

  • 12
    "We removed a moderator for repeatedly violating our existing Code of Conduct" – Rubiksmoose Oct 3 at 17:04
  • 3
    @Rubiksmoose meta.stackexchange.com/a/334271/388884 – CaldeiraG Oct 3 at 17:05
  • 4
    +1 for most of this but then -1 for the last sentence. In my opinion, not only should the company not realse a new and more draconian Code of Conduct, but rather - repeal the existing one or make it significantly less oppressive and arbitrary in terms of process. – einpoklum - reinstate Monica Oct 3 at 22:13
  • @einpoklum I agree with you but the last sentence was mostly motivated to see what Monica actually violated in the new CoC (it will be released ASAP as Sara mentioned and since they actively used it to fire Monica) than making it more draconian. – CaldeiraG Oct 3 at 22:22
  • @CaldeiraG: So please elaborate on the last sentence a bit to make that clearer. – einpoklum - reinstate Monica Oct 3 at 22:39
  • 2
    We do not deserve the apology, it should not be addressed to us. meta.stackexchange.com/a/334334/135923 – Reinstate Monica Oct 4 at 1:49
  • I believe you meant "didn't even apologize to Monica and..." but I hesitate to edit that part as it's in bold. In case it's just a mistake due to having English as a foreign language, I'll explain: "for" in this case would mean "on behalf of." "To" would indicate the receipt point of the apology. I'm pretty sure you meant "to" instead of "for." – Wildcard Oct 4 at 16:25
  • @Wildcard thanks for the advice, i'm indeed a non-native speaker, I'll fix it :) – CaldeiraG Oct 4 at 18:45
  • @Rubiksmoose it should be We removed a moderator for repeatedly violating our existing Code of Conduct in future. This means she was fired for what she will probably do and not has done yet. – shiny-metal Oct 6 at 7:44
  • @shiny-metal yet it was not phrased that way on purpose. According to the information I have, they phrased it correctly. – Rubiksmoose Oct 6 at 13:09
31

Ultimately here's my two cents on this thing. SE made a poor decision and the community as a whole is mostly in agreement (on top of the mass mod exodus). They're clearly not listening, and giving half motions by ways of apologies and answers.

The only way to send a message to a company that clearly only cares about their bottom line at this point is to hit them in their wallets. Walk away, don't support any of the Exchanges. Don't visit their sites, don't let their ads load. Let the whole infrastructure collapse.

  • 13
    In total agreement. After the great welcoming of 2017 and how SE staff and moderators sided with a person from Twitter rather than site contributors that's when I walked away personally. Things haven't improved it seems, people outraged posting on Meta should cut their losses and stop voluntarily contributing to the success of those who you disagree with. – Loktar Oct 3 at 17:10
  • 4
    If the companies that advertise on SE are aware of the situation, then we may have hit them where it hurts. – pacmaninbw Oct 3 at 18:24
  • 4
    Are you really sure only mods are leaving? – Rui F Ribeiro Oct 4 at 19:41
136

A couple of thoughts and perhaps a bit of mentoring as well.

First, "Friends," is really not a appropriate start to an open letter like this. "Dear Colleagues," or perhaps "Dear Members of the Stack Exchange Community," are much more appropriate. As others have pointed out, we aren't friends and a professional relationship does not imply a personal relationship.

Second, I'm a bit surprised that management at Stack Exchange wasn't aware of this:

We learned (or were painfully reminded, rather) to never ship at 6 PM (EDT) on a Friday.

While it is generally acceptable to inform someone before the weekend that they are being laid-off, generally that decision should be made days to weeks in advance. There might be occasions where it is necessary to remove someone in an expedient fashion, but it doesn't appear to have been the case. Even assuming good faith and there was communication going on behind the scenes that we are not aware of, we encounter this situation,

Even more, this weekend was a religious holiday observed by many on the site.

That was a really big mistake. Despite your personal options about Monica Cellio, she was a fairly high profile person on the site. Between that, the Shabbat, Rosh Hashana, and the fact that all of the issues were "behind closed doors" from the standpoint of the general public, there was no need for a expedient dismissal.

Third, it's a really bad idea to use canned responses and to talk to the press before a general response like this is written. Going back to my second point, a much better way of handling this after the determination to dismiss Monica was made would have been to have an official statement ready to go before Monica was even informed of the decision. Properly managed, the community may not have even needed to know that Monica was fired and a graceful exit strategy could have been employed.

Quite frankly, as someone that's been around since the private beta and has around 40K worth of reputation across all network sites, I'm very disappointed in the direction Stack Exchange has gone over the years. This really was one of those situations that could have been handled much better and I suspect a lot of good people are moving on as a result.

Finally, as Director of Public Q&A you are being held to a bit of a higher standard than other employees of Stack Exchange. Be mindful of that.

  • 89
    And comparing the forced removal of someone from an organization to "oops, don't deploy on Fridays" is rather insensitive, IMHO. You're not making changes to 1s and 0s, you're implementing a huge, unexpected change in someone's life (luckily not their livelihood, in this case at least). – TylerH Oct 3 at 17:10
  • 9
    @TylerH In this case its not just that it happened on a Friday, but that it happened half an hour before the moderator in question goes offline for religious reasons. – Reinstate Monica Oct 3 at 17:15
  • 2
    Thanks, more level headed than I could be. – Sklivvz Oct 3 at 18:45
230

Sara,

I don't envy you right now. I realize you are getting absolutely hammered by negative feedback, and more is rolling in every minute. If I were in your shoes, I'd be a mess. I'd be seriously tempted to write off all these criticisms as the result of a poisoned culture that needs to be overhauled.

I hope, though, that you'll remember that this criticism is not coming from a bunch of neanderthals. This criticism is certainly passionate, and at times may be unfair, but nonetheless it largely comes from people who are the recognized leaders of their communities.

This isn't just a bunch of people with three followers tweeting you. These critics are largely people who have demonstrated their ability to work with others patiently and kindly, despite disagreements. These critics are largely people who want to see Stack Exchange succeed. Indeed, many of them want to see you succeed, though it may not feel that way.

So I ask you to please attempt to dispassionately consider all this criticism. Filter out the excesses and learn from the truths, and ask people you trust to help you distinguish between the two.

Perhaps this will only be possible after the dust settles. But please don't dismiss all this as mere negativity from the rabble.

  • 45
    Basically, read the advice she wrote in her blog post on negative feedback – CalvT Oct 3 at 17:11
  • 19
    This does mirror Sara's own blog post from a while ago: stackoverflow.blog/2019/07/18/… – Oded Oct 3 at 17:13
  • 7
    @Oded Yes. But the key difference here is that some critics here are "questioning my ability as a manager, throwing around insults". I hope that she is able to receive this criticism despite any excesses that did not occur in the story she relates in that blog post. – Nathaniel is protesting Oct 3 at 17:19
  • 11
    Which is why I brought it up - she's been in a similar place before. Most of the responses are from people who care, and are directed towards the situation. – Oded Oct 3 at 17:21
  • "I hope, though, that you'll remember that this criticism is not coming from a bunch of neanderthals." - I see some intolerance against neanderthals in your answer. [Just kidding] – Victor Stafusa Oct 5 at 15:34
  • In other words, "People are saying mean things about you, and it sucks, but those people are probably right, so stop screwing up"? – GreySage Oct 8 at 18:54
73

In all honesty, I do believe that knowing why Monica Celio was demoted as a mod is none of our business (or at least, none of the regular users business).

However, I do believe that it is Monica's business to know why she was demoted.

From what I have read so far, I get the feeling that Monica hasn't received a proper explanation about what she did wrong. So, if this is true (and I could be wrong), I urge you to send her a detailed (and private) message explaining all that.

There is nothing more awful than being banned from a place you love without understanding why.

  • 54
    Abuse of power is everybody's business. Unless there is a reason not to divulge, such as the victim explicitly demanding it, then abuse of power is everybody's business by default. It should not be hidden in the shadows. – Loduwijk Oct 3 at 18:43
  • 6
    I think it is my business; therefore it is my business. I put in effort here, I see others do the same. The moderators put in extraordinary time and effort. I will respond to how they and others are treated. I care about how others are treated. – James Reinstate Monica Polk Oct 4 at 0:44
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    As a general principle those who hold personal information should not divulge it publicly without explicit consent from that person to do so. The issue of it being 'in the public interest' complicates that, but unfortunately those who do not know the details are by definition not in a position to make that judgement. Also SE is not an independent party in this concern, so I would prefer they were extremely cautious about making that judgement. It would be a bad idea to do so hastily, particularly as public communication is irreversible. Instead I agree with Aelis's suggested course of action. – Isaac Oct 4 at 13:00
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    Why is it none of our (users) business? Was she not elected by us in those positions? – ypercubeᵀᴹ Oct 4 at 18:31
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    It might have been proper to consider it a matter to be dealt with privately, in the beginning. It no longer can be considered so as the object of the termination has, repeatedly, asked for the details in this thread, and has alluded to considering presenting evidence from the other side here as well. – Gypsy Spellweaver Oct 6 at 10:23
286

This is not what the community expected or deserved. An apology would have been appropriate, and this does not qualify as one. And as Monica said, "citation[s] needed" for a great deal of this post.

I was officially inactive for several days on my sites while most of this unfolded. When I returned on Monday evening, I found one of the most valuable members of the SE network unceremoniously tossed to the curb, with no notice or meaningful opportunity to respond, and everything on fire. I took the time to read everything I could on the public sites, mod team site, and various mod chats before reaching the conclusion that I needed to resign my diamonds and walk away from roles I loved and responsibilities I took seriously.

The evidence I have seen rebuts at least the following statements in your post:

Last week we made an important decision for our community.

This is partially accurate. You did make the decision for the communities in the sense of taking away agency and autonomy. Not so much in terms of making a decision for the benefit of, much less with input from, said communities.

We removed a moderator for repeatedly violating our existing Code of Conduct...

I have seen no evidence of this whatsoever. The evidence I have seen is clear that Monica was trying to determine how to comply with the vaguely-described, proposed, future CoC, not violate it, that she did so in private contexts, and that she did so respectfully.

and being unwilling to accept our CM’s repeated requests to change the behavior.

I have seen no evidence of this whatsoever. Quite the opposite.

We recognize it has caused concern in the community as a whole.

To put it bluntly, I don't think you do. This kind of boilerplate "sorry you were upset by our decision" non-apology indicates to me that you have no idea how much damage has already occurred.

We made a hard decision, and we stand by that decision.

Not false, perhaps, but a grave error.

We have a policy for users, but this is the first time we’ve had to suspend a moderator for a Code of Conduct violation.

Unless memory fails me or the official explanation of certain past incidents is something other than the CoC, I do not believe this is accurate. (Edit: the OP keeps getting edited, but your statement is incorrect regardless of whether it says “suspend” or “remove.”)

We learned (or were painfully reminded, rather) to never ship at 6 PM (EDT) on a Friday. We didn’t follow that rule last week and as a result there was a lot of confusion over the weekend.

The “confusion” has nothing to do with the fact that this happened just before a weekend. Blaming the widespread reaction to your decision entirely on timing indicates either a complete failure to comprehend the situation or utter indifference to how the communities affected feel.

People aren't upset because you made a decision at 6 PM on a Friday. Nor are they upset solely because you did so right before a major, religious holiday that the person most directly affected observes by going offline.* They're upset that you removed a popular, highly respected, professional, competent, and extremely kind and decent person from multiple moderator positions simply because she didn't agree to toe the line on a still-unpublished policy without at least asking some questions. And on top of that, you disregarded your official, published, community-vetted process for moderator removals.

I have not always agreed with Monica on everything, but she has always been among the kindest, most respectful, all-around best moderators on the entire network. Even when we didn't see eye-to-eye, I respected her take and always felt that I was treated respectfully. I have seen nothing whatsoever that could justify how I have seen her treated.

We do value every one of you.

Again, to be blunt, I think I speak for many people when I say that I don't believe this anymore. The evidence strongly indicates quite the opposite.

We’ve seen your pings on chat and on the network and have been actively working to get you answers as soon as possible.

6-8 isn't going to cut it. The response so far has been unapologetic, dogmatic, boilerplated, and slow. At this point, I'm personally disinclined to participate at all on these sites if this is how the communities can expect to be treated.


* But, to be clear, that timing was appallingly inappropriate and insensitive, and people are very upset about it, with good reason.

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    To be fair, the timing in this case is extremely relevant and many have pointed out that it just added insult to injury and was, at the very least, shockingly insensitive. That she addressed the timing is the only useful thing I can find in this post. – terdon - stop harming Monica Oct 3 at 17:46
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    Oh, I absolutely agree that the timing was appallingly insensitive and inappropriate. I just want to make the point that, as you said, it was adding insult to injury. The timing is relevant, but it’s only part of the problem. – elixenide Oct 3 at 17:48
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    This pretty well sums up my feelings. Thanks Ed. – James Oct 3 at 18:48
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    "You did make the decision for the communities in the sense of taking away agency and autonomy. Not so much in terms of making a decision for the benefit of, much less with input from, said communities." 100+ – user141160 Oct 3 at 20:36
58

This response has been picked apart, but I feel a few more points need to be raised.

As we continue on this path to doing better, we want to thank you for everything you do and for being such a huge part of this community. We do value every one of you.

It's quite obvious you did not care about the moderator, as your action in removing her moderator status came without proper warning or communication. If this action did come with warning, that warning should be cited, especially following an uproar of this magnitude.

The sheer lack of transparency on this issue is the largest cause for concern. In order to find even some of the smallest bits of information on this event, you have to scour meta SO or meta SE. I personally spent the better part of an hour simply reading over all relevant topics of the event and trying to piece the story together.

I had hoped that, after almost a week of deliberation, we would at the very least get some detailed information regarding this event, rather than:

Last week we made an important decision for our community. We removed a moderator for repeatedly violating our existing Code of Conduct and being unwilling to accept our CM’s repeated requests to change the behavior.

This explanation is vague and lacks sufficient information to inform the public of your decision, or even of the event that transpired. Transparency is necessary when you're discussing the unceremonious removal of a well-renowned moderator.

I request that this post be heavily edited to hopefully explain what happened, how it happened, the thought process behind the moderator's removal, and eventually, your serious plans for the future. I also request that the plans for the future be discussed on meta with the community such that we, and Stack Exchange CMs, never endure this sort of issue again.

86

I am loathe to post an answer here, because the community is especially charged right now. However, I feel I must speak out.

  1. Full Disclosure: I am trans. I'm not really open about this fact with SE, though I did recently out myself on Parenting.
  2. I have no idea about the details of the new CoC. I haven't been able to find anything directly from the source yet. However, I have read over what Monica said in the Teacher's Lounge. I will not share it here out of respect for Monica and the rules of the Teacher's Lounge. But what she said is more than a mere disagreement over pronoun use. She used strong, visceral language that was definitely a violation of our current Code of Conduct.

    Side Note: I don't want to get into the details of transphobia and enbyphobia (non-binary phobia) here, but I do want to say that I don't think Monica meant any offense or that she harbors any ill will toward the trans community. Sometimes, however, people's actions can be harmful even when there are good intentions.

  3. Nevertheless, I disagree with what appears to be a one-strike-you're-out approach. I think some form of discipline was in order, but the immediate removal is out of line.
  4. This is a delicate issue. People were bound to be hurt however this went, but I feel that the cloak and dagger approach ultimately created more problems. And unfortunately, as pointed out by a few others, this puts trans issues at the center of a scandal.
  • 36
    The only strong visceral language I saw her using was talking about how she felt when something else was done to her, the implication here that she evidenced any form of phobia towards another persons identity is simply not accurate. – Caleb Oct 3 at 18:07
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    @Caleb As specified in the side note box, I'm not engaging in discussion of phobia and I don't think Monica meant any harm. What she said was harmful period. – called2voyage Oct 3 at 18:08
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    So she's being sacked because of harm she did not mean? – Frédéric Hamidi Oct 3 at 18:11
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    @called, this is an incredible can of worms. Now there will be more debate about what constitutes harm and where to put the cursor between "fragile snowflake" and "actually abused person", and what to do with people who cross the line in good faith, etc., etc... Nowadays sometimes it looks like the whole world is revolving around those issues. I'm feeling... saturated. – Frédéric Hamidi Oct 3 at 18:18
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    "I don't think Monica meant any harm"...Does this imply Monica may still not understand what she did wrong? There's just a huge disconnect here - others are saying she's the nicest person ever (more or less), and Sara is accusing her of being persistently nasty. I don't doubt you saw something, but this is all bewildering to an outside observer. If she did something entirely unknowingly despite seeming a careful and considerate writer (more so than me!) that got her abruptly defenestrated without discussion, I'm not sure how much hope there is for the rest of us. – Stuart Whitehouse Oct 3 at 18:19
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    @called2voyage intentions matter when establishing punishments though. The best we can do is help people who make unintentional harmful comments understand the problem. Punishing people because they don't know better is, well, evil. – Sklivvz Oct 3 at 18:38
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    It's problematic that you've made an accusation against Monica while ostensibly not reporting what was said within the Teacher's Lounge. Other than that I am also saddened that the question of what's respectful towards trans people on SE is now caught up with coercive corporate authority. – einpoklum - reinstate Monica Oct 3 at 22:07
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    @einpoklum I wish there were another way, but there were lots of people saying that all she did was disagree on a policy change and I didn't feel that was the case so I felt the need to say something. I don't feel that I have the right to share what was in that private room. – called2voyage Oct 4 at 0:07
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    @einpoklum That said, the crux of the matter here is that this whole situation is unfair, and I think we can stand united on that. – called2voyage Oct 4 at 0:07
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    There is another way. Two, in fact. The first is to actually share what she did. Not quote or even paraphrase, but just name it. Did she dead name, misgender, etc? There is no wrong action that doesn't have a name. And if even that minimal amount of sharing is too much, then there's the second option: don't say anything at all. The bad option is to mirror the administration and say she's done something wrong without saying what. This doesn't work as a rebuttal, as you've provided no information. It just besmirches her name, rather than showing her any respect. – trlkly Oct 4 at 2:34
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    @trikly She referred to someone using gender neutral pronouns in an edit to her post as something that is physically nauseating to her. – called2voyage Oct 4 at 2:40
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    @called2voyage Thank you. Unfortunately, the specifics mean that I can't agree with your post. Such is not inherently hurtful. It would depend on context. If she's talking about having to use it for trans people, then of course that is hurtful. It's invalidating the trans identity, while saying that they make you physically sick. But saying that singular they makes you sick? I know trans allies and nonbinary people who say as much. I think the hurtfulness depends entirely on how you interpret the statement. – trlkly Oct 4 at 3:07
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    @trikly I hear you and I appreciate you sharing. I disagree, but ultimately I think we can agree that SE's behavior toward Monica and the community was inappropriate. Thank you for wading through this together! ❤ – called2voyage Oct 4 at 3:38
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    Re #2: are you talking about something from the TL discussion on Sep 18 or the teams post that was being discussed there? I certainly don't recall saying anything in TL about nausea, and the teams post was from January so my memories are fuzzier and I no longer have access to check. You are welcome to contact me privately to discuss this; it's not hard to find my contact information. – Monica Cellio Oct 4 at 14:06
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    I would like to state that I've read through the mod post & I've identified the comment at issue. Monica did not use the word "nauseated". The sentiment is at best superficially similar when taken out of context, but not at all similar, IMHO, in context. I won't quote it, but to be explicit, she did not say "nauseated", nor did she ever imply disgust with trans people. She has said repeatedly that she cares about trans people & would not deliberately misgender anyone. – gung - Reinstate Monica Oct 5 at 2:54

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