Review
Pop Culture Happy Hour
[THEME MUSIC]
AISHA HARRIS: So you may have noticed Jay-Z's been everywhere lately. It's been 30 years since his acclaimed debut, Reasonable Doubt, and to celebrate, he put on a series of sold-out, star-studded concerts at Yankee Stadium, made a big show of cutting off his famous locs, and now this-- JAY-Z in 8, an HBO docuseries where Hov dissects song lyrics across his catalog with the storied producer Rick Rubin. The obvious play here is to further cement his legacy as one of the most revered lyricists of our time, but Jay-Z has always been this kind of polarizing figure when it comes to how he's moved as a business mogul and in his personal life. So who is this series for, exactly? And does it do what it sets out to do? I'm Aisha Harris, and we're gonna get into that here on NPR's Pop Culture Happy Hour with culture writer and critic Shamira Ibrahim. Hi, Shamira. Great to have you here.
SHAMIRA IBRAHIM: Hey, Aisha. Great to be here, as per usual.
HARRIS: Yes, yes, yes. So look, the concept here is pretty simple. Over eight episodes, it's just Jay and Rubin sitting in the middle of an empty, lavish hall in Paris, playing and then picking apart tracks like "Meet the Parents" and "Can I Live." And it's shot in black and white by the great cinematographer Bradford Young, who worked on the movies Arrival and Selma. Jay-Z is a producer on this project, as is Rick Rubin and Daniel Kaluuya. So essentially, this is like old-school Rap Genius annotations or a collegiate English masterclass, but make it high art.
IBRAHIM: Right.
HARRIS: Right, right?
IBRAHIM: I mean, I feel like it's many things. I'm not entirely sure that I feel like it's a documentary, though, which is kind of my sticking point on how it's been packaged, you know?
HARRIS: That is absolutely fair. I think we can kind of debate those merits, absolutely. But yeah, JAY-Z in 8 is airing on HBO and streaming on HBO Max. And so Shamira, I guess, let's just get into it. Like, who do you think this was meant for? And generally speaking, do you think it's doing what it set out to do, as I've already kind of asked? I'm curious what your thinking is on that front.
IBRAHIM: Well, I think that's my ultimate question, right? I don't know what it sets out to do. I don't know if it sets out to provide novel insight into Jay-Z's lyricism, which is a project he's done repeatedly, you know, over the years, starting probably with the early 2010s with Decoded, which he worked on directly with dream hampton as a book. Or if it's supposed to provide, like, novel insight into his life. Which, there are glimpses of Jay-Z's life, but there aren't really extensive swatches of novel insight that the average superfan wouldn't already know, unless you're really curious to know how he feels about the Tupac-Biggie beef, in which case then you will find out plenty, I guess, you know?
HARRIS: Sure, sure.
[AUDIO PLAYBACK]
JAY-Z: This was the record that made Tupac and I have a little bit of problem, just because him and Big, and I was next to Big and things. But on this song, when he ends it, "I'm warning you," the next thing he said, "I'm warning you," was "most hated in California." I was like, no, no, no, no, no. You're taking that out. I don't want to be a part of that.
[END PLAYBACK]
IBRAHIM: I think it's, like, a remarkable testament to, like, the desire of someone as large as Jay-Z to feel the need to cement and establish his legacy, but also rub up against his inclination to have as much control as possible over his narrative and the myth of his rise as possible. It leaves you with, like, this tension of, like, well, you want me to celebrate you, but you want to control what I know about you to celebrate, and also resist any interrogation, right? He bristles against the idea that we have a right to challenge him on his perceptions of things, right? And so we really get, like, a really lovely exhibit with a fascinating sound system, and I really enjoyed listening to the crisp audio. I don't know if I came away feeling like I had a new perspective on Jay-Z. Granted, I grew up in New York, so I've been exposed to Jay-Z for the last three decades, right? But I don't know if I really feel like I came away with something novel or insightful, except for maybe some resolution of, like, long-standing lyrical debates that we've had.
HARRIS: Mm, mm. Yeah, I mean-- [LAUGHS] I would count myself as a very casual Jay-Z fan. Like, I was a suburban kid whose parents would only let-- like, the closest I could get to buying a rap album when I was, you know, 10, 11, 12 was Will Smith, Big Willie Style and Willennium. And so, like, my exposure to Jay-Z was, like, purely through radio and TV at the time. "Big Pimpin'," "Can I Get A--" like, that was, like, kind of what I knew. And as I've grown older, obviously I followed him through his proximity to Beyoncé and also his bigger songs that he's done with collaborations with other artists. So I'm a very casual fan. And yet, I feel the same way, which is like, I don't feel like I learned anything new that I didn't already know about him, you know? Like, this is the type of thing where I think the hardcore Jay-Z fans who, I hate to say it, who are not very critical about him as an artist or as a figure in the public square, will probably gobble this up. I think some people who hold on tightly to this idea of preserving hip hop and preserving the artistry of hip hop will find things to like about this. Because, I mean, say what you will about him. I think that he is kind of one of those people who still stands in for a certain idea of what hip hop used to be. And so hearing him dissect lyrics, and paying so much attention to lyrics when we've kind of moved away from that as a culture, where lyrics are less important, generally speaking, in hip hop-- or some people would argue that they're less important, depending on the biggest mainstream artists that you're talking about-- I totally see why this would be attractive to them. Like, there's a moment in the first episode where he and Rick Rubin are chatting, and at one point, he says, like, oh, we'll get to that later. Like, just as an aside.
[AUDIO PLAYBACK]
JAY-Z: And my grandfather had his demons. You know, he had a bunch of demons. He got his, um-- you know, we'll get into that.
[END PLAYBACK]
HARRIS: And I was like, oh, this is very planned. Like, you can tell the way that Rick Rubin-- and Rick Rubin also directed. He's not just a producer, but he also directed this series. I just found it so calculated and sterile.
IBRAHIM: Yeah.
HARRIS: There was no meatiness. Like, yes, you can dissect it line by line, and you feel as though maybe you're getting something, but I didn't feel like I was actually getting much out of it, right?
IBRAHIM: You know, what's so fascinating to me is despite how curated it was, it felt like it just surprisingly lacked structure. Like, I was really trying to figure out what the connecting threads were between the selection of songs, or even the direction of questioning. It wasn't like the songs were grouped by album, right?
HARRIS: No, no.
IBRAHIM: In some ways, I guess they were grouped by topic. Like, there were some times where it seemed like, OK, we're talking about, like, Jay-Z's canon of, like, really open, emotional songs, which are pretty limited in his catalog. So everyone kind of knows, obviously, "4:44" is the more recent one where he's talking openly about infidelity. But it really felt like for the breadth of the conversation, it still seemed to kind of be a little directionless. And I still don't really understand what the connecting philosophy was around what was supposed to be communicated, aside from the fact that Jay-Z has a remarkable-- and I mean this sincerely-- remarkable capacity for retaining his lyrics and retaining the intention and memory associated with his songmaking and craftsmanship. Like, the fact that he can have almost instant recall of songs is a testament to his one-of-a-kind unique skill set as an emcee. I just don't know if beyond, like, a few seemingly unintentional moments, we really get much clarity as to his whole animus as an artist, how he feels like it affects his life, and how he looks at establishing his legacy from now on.
HARRIS: Yeah. To that point, I think what you're saying about his memory, and also just like-- while watching this, I was like, he's a very personable person. I can see why people would be drawn to him, and I can understand, like, he is very affable. Like, there's not a lot of friction here. But like, he has a way of saying nothing but also making it feel somewhat compelling in the way that he says it, and the way he just chats. But I do think this is where I butt up against-- you and me both, we have experience interviewing people. Neither of us are famous. And this is where I come up across this, where it's like, I am getting very sick of celebrities interviewing other celebrities.
IBRAHIM: I mean, let's get into it.
HARRIS: Can we talk about it?
IBRAHIM: Because to be frank, you know, one of the things that stood out to me is, like, just a few months ago Jay-Z had a very publicized interview with GQ's Frazier Tharpe. And, you know, even if you may have, you know, criticisms about the form or whether or not it was too complimentary, one thing that Frazier was successfully able to do is get Jay-Z to directly answer specific questions about his perspectives on specific things in his life on record.
HARRIS: Yeah.
IBRAHIM: I feel like we spent so much time in this docuseries talking around the friction around things without just addressing it head-on. And when there were moments to address it, it was almost ignored. Like, at one point, you know, they talk a little bit about his relationship with Nas. They mention the beef. And like, Jay-Z starts to launch into him being like, well, me and Nas are friends now. And like, Rick kind of changed the topic. I was like, no, I want to hear more about that! When did you and Nas start becoming great friends? Like, what was that process towards healing that? This is something that is worth, you know, sinking into. Or when they talk about, you know, Jay-Z's history with Kanye, which obviously we know is notably fractured and volatile, especially in recent years. And, you know, Jay-Z does acknowledge Kanye's influence and greatness, but shies just sort of just really acknowledging, like, their fracture and his feeling of betrayal, although he discusses betrayal mattering to him significantly. Those are just moments where I just felt like we're really talking around some really pivotal points in Jay-Z's life that are, like, kind of foundational to understanding his legacy as an artist, and I don't really understand-- or rather, I believe that someone who's more attuned to the skill of interviewing would probably have lingered on those points a bit more.
HARRIS: Yeah, the thing that happens so often in this series is Rick Rubin will just kind of lay up a very softball, like, tell me about this, or like, explain the Tupac and Biggie beef. And then Rick Rubin is kind of acting as though he doesn't know these things, like he's not aware, as if he didn't co-found Def Jam Records. Like, OK. And then he's like, also sitting there wide-eyed and, like, sometimes barefoot. I'm like, what are we doing here? Sitting there like a child or just like someone who's just like, wow. Like, you could make a meme, like a video meme of him, like, every time he says, wow, when his eyes open up or like, yeah, that's so deep. Like, there's just no friction here. And sometimes, like, a song lyric will come up where the R-word will come up, or a line about Koreans, looking like a Korean, or a kind of teetering-on-antisemitism line about Jewish people. And nothing. No interrogation of that. Like, obviously these songs are older, and we're in a different time, but like, if I was a journalist interviewing him I would be asking him, OK, let's talk about this line.
IBRAHIM: Well, especially if the pretense is, we're doing a close read of your lyrics. Like, that's the entire premise here.
HARRIS: Exactly, exactly.
IBRAHIM: So I mean, then let's do the close read. Like, especially when so much of the conversation, Jay-Z kind of sits on his laurels and says something to the effect of, I choose my words very intentional. I'm very aware of the multiple interpretations of things. And if you were thinking it could be one or the other, the answer is often that it's both, right? That that is his game of being a wordsmith, that is his approach to semantic and rhetorical wordplay. Which I genuinely think is impressive and showcases him as, like, a real master of the English language.
HARRIS: Yeah. Again, this is where I keep bumping up against what I think he's trying to do, right? And as you've already mentioned, he did Decoded, the book that came out around 2010 with dream hampton. And he's done a lot of profiles. He's sat with various people and he's talked about certain things, but he's talked around them. And I think he kind of lands on, like, my music speaks for itself, to some extent. But then at the same time, you have him and his wife, Beyoncé, often using signifiers of radicalism, political activism. And I think about the fact that this series, essentially this rollout is happening and coinciding with the release of former NFL star Colin Kaepernick's new memoir, and in that memoir he addresses his interactions with Jay-Z. And Jay-Z's company, Roc Nation, partnered with the NFL, which was a move that was seen by many, including Kaepernick, as effectively undercutting his protests against police brutality.
IBRAHIM: Mm-hmm.
HARRIS: And then Jay-Z seemed to take a swipe at Kaepernick during a freestyle he did at one of his recent shows at Yankee Stadium in July. So this all seems at odds with the persona he's trying to craft here in this series. Because they do kind of touch a little bit on politics here, and sort of what Jay-Z feels his responsibility, you know, as a famous person and as a person with power. But it also just seems like we're seeing how that plays out in real life versus how he presents himself here, and I feel like there's just this really fractured juxtaposition between this idea of capitalism and him being able to, like, capitalize on signifiers that suggest, like, I'm doing this for our people. But it's like, I don't know, man. Like, that doesn't come out in this series, it doesn't come out in how he moves.
IBRAHIM: I fully get you on that, and I did find it to be in dialogue with the ongoing conversation with regards to Kaepernick, but not in the way that people expect, right? Like, I think some people expected, like, a direct response or, you know, way for him to speak on, well, you mentioned Kaepernick in songs or rhetoric. Now, obviously, the tune has changed, right? But what I found more interesting was that he finds different ways to impress upon both Rick and, of course, the watchers and listeners, that the prosperity gospel capitalist approach that he has is not something that he's, like, capitulating to, right? I think sometimes for some people, the concept for people is like, oh, no, you know, Jay-Z is bought and sold for, and the idea of like, he has been told that, you know, he has to be an avatar to maintain his wealth. Whereas if you watch how he articulates his life experience to Rick Rubin, it's quite clear that his core narrative is, I took capitalism by the reins. I was a hustler. And then I turned the rap game into a hustle, and it worked. It's very hard for him to fundamentally believe the idea that capitalism and the structures of capitalism can be harmful when he views it as a tool of liberation for himself, and the way that he views that rap can be used as a tool of liberation or a tool of motivation for listeners to say, I can do it too, right?
HARRIS: Yeah. At one point, he talks about the whole Cristal thing where, like, he and a lot of his cohorts were promoting Cristal. And then all of a sudden, whoever was kind of, like, the face of Cristal spoke up and was basically disdainful of this idea that, like, hip hop embraced it. And so he kind of talks about it here, where he's just like, yeah, and then I took them out of my club.
IBRAHIM: Right.
HARRIS: That's his idea of, like-- [LAUGHS] kind of, like, sticking it to the man.
IBRAHIM: Exactly. And then, you know, Ace of Spades came in, the brand behind Ace of Spaces came, and it was a fortuitous opportunity. But it's very clear to me that Jay-Z's perception is that he has been able to amass power through these moves and that is proof of capitalism being a tool to liberate the Black underclass. It is something that he clearly genuinely believes, and was always, then, going to be at odd with any political gesture he was making. And it comes back to, like, when Occupy Wall Street was big and Jay had his own counter-shirts that said "occupy all streets." Again, kind of playing on the make Black capitalism work for you. So it's interesting to watch those sort of sentiments and his thinking on those sentiments bleed through, right? He has a point, for example, that he goes on a protracted kind of explanation of his frustration with-- he doesn't mention her by name, but Elizabeth Mendez Berry, who interviewed him a few years back for the Village Voice and confronted him over his Che Guevara shirt, where he had, like, a large diamond on. And he directly responded to it in a verse and talked about, he's Che Guevara with bling on, I'm complex. And like, it's clear that, like, it still bristles him a lot, right, all these years later, right? Like, it's still something that, you know, gets in his ear. And it's interesting to watch him get so easily frustrated by what are, like, yes, maybe pointed but fairly straightforward critiques of what people have issue with him, and him still struggle to wrestle with it all these years later. It just seems to be reminiscent of, like, a lack of willingness to, like, let himself be interrogated and let himself be challenged. And I think that limitation kind of bleeds through in what we saw on screen.
HARRIS: Yeah. Well, we'll have much more about Jay-Z after the break. Welcome back. Look, I'm not here trying to advocate-- like, I don't need Jay-Z to be the face of a movement, right? Like, I don't want that from him or Beyoncé. But like, I do think if you're gonna do what they have done, which is often trade in these signifiers-- like, even bringing it back to Kaepernick, like, Kaepernick has said, you know, at first he was wearing my jersey, right? He was, like, supporting me, and then he goes and makes a deal with the NFL. And the series doesn't address that, but I do think that, like, he tries to have it both ways. And while I'm not entirely certain he's gonna have his, like, Ed Sheeran moment where he, like, is forced to confront it in a way where it's like, you can't just be apolitical, man. But I do think, like, this series is kind of like his way of putting it on the record. It's another way to sort of, like, cement his legacy and make it seem as though we're going very, very deep. Because it's eight episodes long, and my god, it did not need to be this long. Him and Beyoncé are so obsessed with four, the number four. This could have been done in a tight four. It would have worked, I think.
IBRAHIM: Well, I guess I'm curious about this for you.
HARRIS: Yeah.
IBRAHIM: Why do you think they went with this being a video project and not, let's say, a podcast miniseries, right? I don't know how much value the actual visual element of the project really offered. It was crystal clear sonics. Like, whatever speakers they were using in that room--
HARRIS: Sounded fantastic.
IBRAHIM: But I'm not really entirely sure if, like, you know, two minutes of Jay and Rick standing and nodding, you know, was particularly conducive to really adding more into what they were talking about.
HARRIS: Because I think that Jay-Z, and not to bring Beyoncé into this again, but I think both of them, they prize the visual. They prize it as, like, a way of, uh-- it is, again, it's high art to them. Like, I think about when Jay-Z did that stunt with "Picasso Baby."
IBRAHIM: Yeah.
HARRIS: That was, like, a video. It was him just rapping the same song over and over for how many hours? And in, like, an art gallery. I think a podcast is too, quote, unquote, "lowly" for them. Like, they wouldn't necessarily say that, but it's like, beneath them. Like, they see cinema as-- which is why they have Bradford Young, and why Daniel Kaluuya is a executive producer. Like, this is a way to elevate the show beyond, like, what it would be for a podcast, and the fact that it's on HBO. Like, I think all of those things make it seem way more-- and look, we're podcasters. I'm a podcaster. Like, I'm not trying to demean the art. I am saying that for them, that would not be enough. And I think there's just a little-- it's sexier this way.
IBRAHIM: Right.
HARRIS: One other thing I will say is that this does feature the lyrics on the screen, and I think that adds something to it.
IBRAHIM: And the lyrics do add another element for sure. Because I do remember when they put the lyrics to the song "U Don't Know," which there's been a long debate about whether Jay-Z says sell water to a well or water to a whale, right?
HARRIS: Oh, right, right.
IBRAHIM: I remember seeing the lyrics come across the screen and realizing, oh, wow, we finally have the answer! I do think, like, those sort of small moments were kind of like an asset to the art form. I just wish that the director would have more license to actually give their POV. I think part of my sticking point with projects like this-- and I think this includes his wife to some extent-- is that even though there's a celebration of the inclusion into high art, fine art spaces, it seems to always kind of fall short of, like, embracing the nuances of what makes those art forms powerful, right? So for a documentary, it's not just being able to tell your story. It's really, you know, for someone else to be able to give a unique insight into different edges of your life that may not be immediately evident by you just, you know, self-reporting your own narrative. And by taking the reins, and curating it for yourself, you kind of rob yourself of that process of discovery, right? And they have refined the machine that creates the art product, but the actual essentials are still kind of just as sparse as they were before.
HARRIS: And I even think of the video that they put out about him cutting off his locs, and then it's just like, oh, this is really just an ad for Cécred. Like, this is what we're doing here. [LAUGHS] Like, again, there's this tension. And I do wonder, had they had an actual director-- not Rick Rubin, but like, someone else-- I don't know who. Like, Ava DuVernay, or like, I don't know, someone. Because Ava DuVernay has actually worked with them before. She's done one of their videos.
IBRAHIM: Absolutely
HARRIS: So like, I could see that being far more interesting visually. But then, maybe not, because again, the way it's structured is for the most part-- except for one later episode where there's just literally just talking up until, like, no music, except for the end credits. Like, it is mostly just them standing in the middle of a room, an empty room, except for speakers and a table, and talking back and forth and lots of nodding. And yeah, it probably would have been better as a podcast, perhaps, save for the lyrics, like, having that cleared up. But yeah, man, I-- I had to roll my eyes so many times during-- like, the keep one eye open like CBS, from the "Can I Live." And then he's like, it's the CBS logo, but also C-B-S, as in see bull. And I'm like, oh. [LAUGHS] It's like, OK. OK, grandpa. OK, whatever.
IBRAHIM: Right, right.
HARRIS: Yeah.
IBRAHIM: And to give it some credit, I do think there were some moments that were remarkably insightful, right? Like, I think this is arguably the longest that Jay-Z has gone on record about his relationship with Biggie Smalls, the rapper Notorious BIG, since Biggie's passing. You know, we've heard, like, bits and pieces, right? But it was, as a rap fan, as someone who grew up loving Jay lyrics and Biggie lyrics, to hear Jay talk about punching in lyrics with Biggie on "Brooklyn's Finest," like, that is, you know, an all-time moment for me, right? They came in and punched it up and kind of bounced off each other. Genuinely great. Hearing Jay-Z talk about the mechanics of what makes Biggie's voice and vocals so distinctive, it's actually magnificently insightful into the way that his brain works and how he thinks about the mechanics of a voice, and even the way he talks about how he views his voice evolving over his own career. Like, those are the points where you're like, OK, this is the magic. The moments where there is that just, like, really sharp, pointed clarity about just the music industry and how the industry really affects celebrity and individuals, and how it can swallow you whole. All those kind of brief glimpses into, like, how Jay-Z feels about his rise in New York and his rise in rap, something that he never really intended to do, right? Like he says, he thought he was just gonna essentially make one rap album and then go and become a rap mogul, which is an interesting thing to even contend with, right, you know?
HARRIS: Yeah.
IBRAHIM: And instead of really lingering on that, we just end up meandering in so many places that you could almost blink and miss the moments where it does become exceptional. And I think those moments are exceptional to listen to.
HARRIS: Yeah, and I want to stand up for a moment, because I don't want to sound like a complete hater, because there were moments, like you said, that there is some clarity. I think also, you know, not that these are things that I didn't already know, but I think if we're thinking about other audiences and especially younger audiences, there is a little bit of, like, a lay of the land of what hip hop was like at that-- like, when he was coming up. And I think that is another way in the, like, in oral tradition of, like, putting these things down and having it for the next generation. Like, I think there's a little bit of an attempt to, like, put him into the context of history, but also kind of explain hip hop in a way that, like, perhaps younger generations may not be aware of. So I think those moments-- and especially when Rick Rubin, like, drops the whole, like, I'm just a fan act and actually, like--
IBRAHIM: Right, right.
HARRIS: --when there is actually some back and forth, and they're both trading on stories, and like, talking about the same people that they both know, those are the moments where it's like, OK, this is where the celebrity-on-celebrity interview can have some value. I still think it's overvalued, and again, we don't get enough of, like, even just moments where Rick Rubin is asking him, like, do you have any regrets? Or like, he kind of talks about some songs he would redo. But I want to hear more about the failures. I want to hear him talk about, like, "DOA." I want to hear him talk about that and whether his perspective has changed. Like, ugh, yeah, I just-- I just kind of wanted more of that.
IBRAHIM: Yeah.
HARRIS: Yeah. Whew! Well, that brings us to the end of our show. Shamira Ibrahim, thanks so much for being here. This was-- this was fun. I had a lot of fun.
IBRAHIM: Thanks as always, you know.
[LAUGHTER]
IBRAHIM: I'm looking forward to seeing you here for the 30th anniversary of The Black Album, which is sooner than I want to admit.
[LAUGHTER]
HARRIS: Oh, man, what a way to feel not as young anymore, that's for sure.
IBRAHIM: Exactly.
HARRIS: [LAUGHS] This episode was produced by Mike Katzif, Lennon Sherburne, Kadin Mills, and Liz Metzger, and edited by our showrunner, Jessica Reedy. Hello Come In provides our theme music. Thanks for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. I'm Aisha Harris, and we'll see you all next time.
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