The U.S. is pulling its last troops out of Iraq. How will it affect the Middle East
MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:
Let's bring in retired Lieutenant General H.R. McMaster. General McMaster served as national security adviser during the first Trump administration. He also served in Iraq during both Gulf Wars. He's now a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution and author of "Battlegrounds: The Fight to Defend The Free World." General, good morning. Thanks for joining us once again.
H R MCMASTER: Hey. Great to be with you, Michel.
MARTIN: So the U.S. is pulling the last of its troops out of Iraq at a time when the U.S. and Israel are at war with Iraq's neighbor Iran. In your opinion, is this the right time to end the U.S. military presence in Iraq?
MCMASTER: You know, I think it's not the right time, Michel. And the reason is really that this is going to embolden, I think, the Iranians to a certain extent. And it's not clear that there has been the enduring defeat of ISIS. Remember, that became the most destructive terrorist organization in history, taking control of territory the size of Great Britain and conducting something like 95 attacks outside of the area that it controlled - including, of course, remember, in Brussels, in Paris, in Marseille and so forth. So I think it's really important to ensure the enduring defeat of ISIS, and having troops there helps you. It just helps you develop the intelligence picture and work with Iraqis, who were doing the majority of the fighting toward the end of our commitment there.
But then, also, we want a strong Iraq that is not aligned with Iran. And of course, the Iraqis are calling this Sovereignty Day. But their sovereignty is being undermined by these Iranian militias who are really acting like the Hezbollah model that Iran has used to destroy that beautiful country and to threaten Israel on its northern border. You know, they create these militias that lay outside a government's control, such that they can be turned against that government if that government acts against Iranian interests.
MARTIN: So you've given us a couple things to think about here, so let me take them one by one. How will the U.S. maintain an anti-ISIS campaign without U.S. troops in Iraq and Syria? I mean, can it be done remotely from Jordan or Kuwait?
MCMASTER: It really depends on the capabilities of the Iraqis. And of course, the Iraqis are - from a security force perspective are divided between the main government Iraqi security forces and the Kurdish regional government security forces. Remember, it's the latter - the Kurdish forces and the Kurdish regional government - that was attacked by - over a thousand times by Iran. And they're the - they're at greatest risk. And those Kurdish forces just unified in the last week.
MARTIN: And to the point of the - those militias, Iraq's prime minister has set a goal to disarm militias that are supported by Iran, bring them under Baghdad's control by the end of June. And at least three of the factions there in Iraq have said they won't comply. So I'm trying to understand how this is going to happen without U.S. troops.
MCMASTER: Well, it's going to be a big problem. And what you're going to have to have is Iraqi security forces committed against these militias to forcibly disarm them. This is - you know, this is - Ali al-Zaidi, who has made it his goal to disarm these militias to really regain Iraqi sovereignty - he's also trying to take on a huge corruption problem in the country that has weakened the country and weakened its governance. So he has a lot to take on. Initially, he had set a deadline of 30 September to disarm these militias, and then that got kicked back the next year. I suspect, Michel, it's going to get kicked back again because of the strength of these militias and the support they still get from Iran.
Hey, and this is another really big argument for ensuring that Iran doesn't get the infusion of cash it desperately needs at this moment because we know from recent history, after the Biden administration decided not to enforce U.S. sanctions against Iran, that the money that flew - that, you know, flooded into their coffers went to their proxies, militias and terrorist organizations in the region. You know, from Hezbollah to certainly Hamas to Palestinians aligned with jihad to what was Assad's proxy army in Syria to these militias, these Hashd al-Shaabi militias and Kataeb Hezbollah in Iraq and, of course, the Houthis in Yemen.
MARTIN: We are hearing that the Kurds are feeling vulnerable. While a lot of Iraqis are celebrating the troop withdrawal because they do, as we said - are considering it a restoration of sort of full sovereignty, we understand that the Kurds are feeling especially vulnerable. And we're wondering what message you think this sends to them.
MCMASTER: Well, I mean, I think that we need to reassure them, you know, that if necessary, we'll come back to assist them, like we did after the Gulf War in 1991, with Operation Provide Comfort, which allowed that region to thrive and to really be kind of much different from the rest of Iraq, which was still living under the brutality of Saddam Hussein. So I - you know, I - they are nervous. They've unified their security forces, as I mentioned. And they're squeezed, you know, between Iran, these militias in Iraq and Turkey as well.
MARTIN: I am wondering about the troops that you led, and I'm wondering if you have any sense of how you think they might feel about this.
MCMASTER: Well, I hope they feel tremendous pride. We were engaged against the enemies of all civilized people - the brutal al-Qaida in Iraq. And if you want to see the real evidence of how important those soldiers were to protecting the Iraqi people and our interests against this terrorist organization, just look at the last complete withdrawal from Iraq, which was 2011. What happened next? The rise of ISIS - again, the most destructive terrorist organization in history. So that was a righteous mission, in my view. The way that that war evolved - it evolved into a war against modern-day barbarians on - you know, on a modern-day frontier between barbarism and civilization.
MARTIN: I mean, we've got a couple of minutes left if you can stay with me for just two more minutes. And you led the fight against al-Qaida in an extremely complicated part of Iraq with lots of sectarian and ethnic divisions, and a lot of those divisions are still there today. And I do wonder - what is the strategy for addressing that?
MCMASTER: Yeah. It's really to provide security. What these groups want more than anything is to pit communities against each other. This is how ISIS, you know, regained control, largely because of sectarian policies on the part of the Shia-dominated Iraqi government, which convinced many in the Sunni communities that al-Qaida - that these jihadist terrorist organizations - were their patrons and protectors, the only thing protecting them from evisceration.
So I think it's really important to have security by forces that are respected and treat all groups equally. And then, you know, to transcend these sectarian differences is really important - to create the mediating mechanisms, the effective governance. And so there were some strong Iraqi leaders I worked with who did this. And, you know, this is Najim Abdullah al-Jubouri, the mayor of Tal Afar, who later then led the - parts of the offensive against ISIS and Mosul and then became the governor of Nineveh province. You know, we should support leaders like that - right? - who can bring people together, you know, forge the kind of accommodation that breaks the cycle of sectarian violence.
Because, you know, what Iran wants - they want to keep the Arab world perpetually enmeshed in these sectarian civil wars, or fitnas, to keep them perpetually weak. That will allow them to establish, in their minds, you know, hegemonic influence over the Middle East, surround Israel and kill all the Jews. That's what Iran really wants to do, and that's why the stakes in this war with Iran...
MARTIN: OK.
MCMASTER: ...Are so high.
MARTIN: We have to leave it there for now. That's retired Lieutenant General H.R. McMaster, who served as national security adviser in the first Trump administration and served extensively in Iraq. General, thank you so much for these insights.
MCMASTER: Thank you, Michel.
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