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I am preparing a PDN decoupling simulation for a KSZ9897RTXI switch, which utilizes 1.2V, 1.8V, and 2.5V rails. I am trying to establish the maximum frequency range for my target impedance analysis. Current guidance suggests that for devices with internal/on-package decoupling, the PCB-level PDN effectively "caps out" around 10–100MHz, after which the internal silicon capacitance takes over. This implies that the 5th harmonic of the highest internal clock or the fundamental of the input oscillator might be the upper bound for board-level simulation.

Is it safe to assume that for most modern high-speed ICs, simulating the PCB PDN beyond 150MHz or 200MHz is unnecessary? If the high-speed transients are managed by on-chip decoupling, does the PCB's role shift strictly to replenishing those internal caps at lower frequencies? I want to ensure I’m not ignoring critical anti-resonances between the PCB and the package by stopping the simulation too early.

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It is safe to assume that the connection from the power/ground plane pair to the die inside the package is a low-pass filter made up of (unavoidable) inductance and capacitance designed with more or less care. So there IS an upper frequency for which it makes sense to do much for your PDN at the board level.

Now figuring out where and how that "filter" cuts off is the hard part. And it is the board-level designer's job. You would think that a chip designer who did a lot of work to integrate capacitance on the package and die would also share that information in the datasheet. That is unfortunately not often the case, yet (I have been saying "yet" for the last 25 years - haha).

We should all ask the vendor for this cut-off frequency, where the package/die PDN takes over from what we do at the board level. Eventually, this crucial piece of information may actually be in the datasheet. If you don't get an answer, that leaves you with two options: 1) reverse engineer enough to understand roughly what is inside the package/die, or 2) make a wild guess.

Re 2) That is not really engineering, but quite common.

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  • \$\begingroup\$ Thanks, what would an good engineering estimate to go ahead with the simulation? \$\endgroup\$ Commented 19 hours ago
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    \$\begingroup\$ So, using the datasheet example of putting generic bypass caps as instructed or as shown in reference design schematics and layout is not a good enough solution? \$\endgroup\$ Commented 18 hours ago
  • \$\begingroup\$ The recommended decoupling capacitors, usually is 1nF for the supply pins. So, 1nF typically works upto 159MHz. So, essentially, if we go by this, then, the capacitors only work to help within say 160MHz. And beyond that, it should be handled by the package, right? \$\endgroup\$ Commented 18 hours ago
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You would analyze up to the BW of the system traces.

retracted {e.g. 1 GHz to 10 GHz for ethernet using max speed.}

Up to several hundred MHz at most.

PCB's role is to keep the impedance low enough until the package takes over. If the PCB impedance is too high at 200MHz, it can cause the package to resonate, rendering the on-chip caps less effective.

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  • \$\begingroup\$ Ok, would there be any indication in the device datasheet that the device is having on-chip caps? Also, so, I need to only upto 200MHz if I simulate with from source to the device with the PCB? \$\endgroup\$ Commented 21 hours ago
  • \$\begingroup\$ yes it must specify this. e.g. (CAPDAC, CDC , XO ) \$\endgroup\$ Commented 21 hours ago
  • \$\begingroup\$ Your guidance must also state the actual BW, not typical applications \$\endgroup\$ Commented 21 hours ago
  • \$\begingroup\$ If the device load pF and rise time is greater than the path prop delay, you can ignore T-line effects. \$\endgroup\$ Commented 21 hours ago
  • \$\begingroup\$ But don't take my word for it. Simulate it using 10to90%=Tr=0.35/BW_-3dB \$\endgroup\$ Commented 21 hours ago
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Trivial counterpoint: run an SoC through a long spaghetti wire. The onboard capacitance resonates against the, let's say it's a hearty 10µH here, giving a Zo of maybe 2Ω against the onboard capacitance of say 2.5µF.

The peak impedance of this LC network is determined by its loss. There may be parallel and series losses in either element. Let's suppose (without loss of generality) that it's ESR. We make the wire thick enough that its ESR is negligible. That leaves the SoC. It's probably low ESR for two reasons: 1. a low impedance is demanded for functional purposes; 2. low-ESR materials are used (copper interconnects (on die and interposer), ceramic capacitors).

Note that the on-die power network may be constructed as layer(s) of grids, thus using the SiO2 as dielectric to surprisingly high capacitances (many nF, maybe even a few µF). SiO2 has famously low losses; loss would be limited by the metal layers (thickness and area).

Probably the ceramic capacitors dominate losses, typically having a Q factor in the 30 range (LF asymptotic). It seems unlikely they would use anything other than type 2 (ferroelectric) dielectric; other types have lower dielectric constant, and still lower loss.

It also seems unlikely they intentionally reduce interconnect thickness/width, to increase ESR. In the intended application, ceramic cap ESR is high enough to dampen oscillations between nearby capacitors. But only to a point.

If we increase the (electrical) distance to nearby capacitors to a whole 10µH (equivalent to several meters of wire), we get an impedance peak of Q*Zo or 60Ω at 32kHz.

Presumably, the SoC (if it starts at full some-GHz clock speed) could complete a few function calls in that time, perhaps even task switches. It won't take much variation in load, in data flow or execution path or instruction load, let alone sleeping into a task switch (more or less, a minimum to full load step), to ping an impedance that high.

The resonant frequency is low enough, it might even cause damage on startup. Notice that a regulator enabling in < 100µs, even if it has controlled slew rate, will excite some ringing in this network. Startup overvoltage could cause destruction.

While this is an obviously contrived situation, the point stands: the environment beyond the chip of course cannot be ignored.

Indeed we follow similar calculations to figure out what the limiting inductance between chip and local bypass is, to plan the PDN. These calculations are left as an exercise for the student. :)

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