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Context:
On another site recently, I mentioned ways to express the definite article in signing, for example: indexing in ASL (finger-pointing) and fingerspelling (fs-THE) if required. Or for long quotes, using the old sign for the (in SEE) with the T-handshape:

…and very rarely (for direct quotes) a slight t-slide with a stiff wrist, but dont shake it 3 times or that means you have to pee.

I was checking for errors (esp. because it's a learning site) and found four. That's it, I thought, but what about the punch line? Added for humor, but true (a sign for that is "t" shaken 3x).

Addressing just that line (somewhat corrected):

But don't shake it three times or that means you have to pee.

That sounds odd now, maybe colloquial. I'm not sure if that's correctly formed or not. I guess I should've used because instead. Replacing the or with a semicolon works. Maybe it seemed natural to me because I ellipted something.

  1. But don't shake it three times or that means you have to pee. (??)
  2. But don't shake it three times because that means you have to pee.
  3. But don't shake it three times; that means you have to pee.
  4. But don't shake it three times or *else that means you have to pee.

I think adding else made it much worse. I suppose the use of or doesn't work because one clause is a consequence of the other.

(1) I would like to know if using or that way (in the 1st version) would be considered colloquial, idiomatic, or flawed; and why exactly.
(2) I would like the question in the title addressed, at least, if not fully answerable.

Research: Various dictionaries (CED, M-W, OL&G); sites re: uses of or, none really helpful.,

Acronyms:
ASL: American Sign Language (not English), unique language of the Deaf community.
SEE: Signed/Signing Exact English (nearly word-for-word) used for studying English syntax.
PSE: Pidgin Signed English (a mix) using ASL signs with English syntax. (Just FYI.)

TY

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    Completely unrelated to the actual question, but potentially interesting that Irish óir (which is pronounced roughly like English or) does actually mean ‘because, for, since, as’. Commented Oct 18 at 23:49
  • I think this is the basic logic. P or Q is equivalent to (not (not P)) or Q, which is equivalent to (not P) implies Q. Commented Oct 20 at 1:26
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    I suggest a subjunctive: "or it would mean you have to pee". That's not really related to the choice of connective. Commented Oct 20 at 12:49
  • @aschepler - Yes, the subjunctive seems much better than the simple forms (means, will mean) I used or considered, respectively, for stative mean. I didn't like using will mean for a sign that always means that…hmm. But therein lies the problem, or a big one: What do it and that refer to exactly? It is unclear to readers, I now know. Possible antecedents for "it": the whole the sign ('a slight T-slide'), just the stiff wrist, just the T-handshape used. And, for "that": the triple-shake sign or (doing) the triple-shake sign… That's one problem, occurring twice. :-( TSM. Commented Oct 20 at 14:18
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    I think "that" refers to the situation as a whole, not a specific noun phrase here. "What if I had broken my leg in that fall, and then found out it's farther back to the car than I thought? That would be horrible." Commented Oct 20 at 14:41

4 Answers 4

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Oxford Languages gives as one of the meanings of or:

otherwise (used to introduce the consequences of something not being done or not being the case).

"hurry up, or you'll miss it all"

This usage seems to be a variant; introducing the consequences of something being done (shaking the finger three times).

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  • I noticed that meaning before, on OL&G. I wasn't sure if it applied. The negation is throwing me off. BTW, it's the whole hand: a fist with the thumb between the index and middle finger (like "I got your nose!"). I tried to be clear w/o too much detail. I will consider otherwise again; thank you. Commented Oct 18 at 11:34
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    "This usage seems to be a variant; introducing the consequences of something being done" – I don't think I'd call it a variant; it's exactly what this dictionary entry is describing. It's describing the consequences of "don't shake it 3 times" not being done. Commented Oct 18 at 12:20
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    @HippoSawrUs I think the keyword here is probably consequence. Maybe you could say "But don't shake it three times or people will think you want to pee." Commented Oct 18 at 19:02
  • @CaveJohnson - Great idea! I talk about people doing whatever all the time; IDK why I didn't think of that. Thanks. Commented Oct 18 at 21:59
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    They seem the same to me. In the dictionary example, "hurry up or ..." essentially means "if you don't hurry up, ...," and in the OP's sentence, "don't shake it or ..." essentially means "if you shake it, ...." In both cases, the implied condition is the logical negation of what was said. Commented Oct 19 at 13:35
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The problem with sentence 1 is putting together the words or and that.

That is understood to refer to the triple shake. Using or suggests that the triple shake sometimes has a different meaning, but the context suggests that it always means you have to pee.

It would be better to use

But don't shake it three times or it means you have to pee.

It refers to the sign you are discussing and or introduces a different meaning for the sign if it is done incorrectly.

Sentences 2 and 3 are fine. Sentence 4 has the same problem as sentence 1, and adding else makes the problem more obvious. Sentence 4 can also be fixed by replacing that with it.

But don't shake it three times or else it means you have to pee.

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  • Ah, I appear to have a pronoun problem. I'll work on that. Thanks so much. Commented Oct 18 at 2:54
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In combination with don't, or can have a meaning like "since, if you do that instead of the opposite".

Don't make any noise or the surprise party won't be a surprise when he shows up.

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  • I found another example on Wikipedia: "Don't push that button, or twelve tons of high explosives will go off right under our feet!" So I should've used simple future for that construction (don't…or), and a clear subject (not that referring to whatever)… Is that right? I couldn't find anything online specific to don't…or sentences. Commented Oct 20 at 12:30
  • @HippoSawrUs "or it will mean" is better since a future use is being envisioned. I wasn't sure what was being shaken -- your hand with your wrist as the flex point, or your entire forearm with a stiffened wrist? Commented Oct 20 at 14:48
  • It is the hand with the wrist as the flex point for shaking. Commented Oct 21 at 14:04
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They don’t mean the same thing, but they both work here

But don't shake it three times or that means you have to pee.

The “or” here is comparing the shaking it three times to all the other ways you could not shake it three times.

But don't shake it three times because that means you have to pee.

The because here is making the meaning explicitly consequential, this was only implied with or.

But don't shake it three times; that means you have to pee.

This has the same meaning as because. You could also make this a full stop because semicolons can almost always be replaced with full stops.

But don't shake it three times or *else that means you have to pee.

Or else doesn’t work because 1. It doesn’t correctly contrast with the universe of all other ways of making the gesture like or does, 2. Te or else consequence doesn’t work with “meaning” - shaking it three times means I have to pee whether or not I actually shake it three times.

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  • 'The “or” here is comparing the shaking it three times to all the other ways you could not shake it three times.' Sorry, I don't follow. << But don't do A or that means you have to do B >> seems at best a loose way of putting << But don't do A or you will have to do B >>. OP is asking how acceptable this is in various registers. Commented Oct 17 at 22:27
  • I think it's a false dichotomy, but one alternative is everything else in the world. Haha, IDK. But I didn't dv it. Thanks for addressing all the lines. Commented Oct 21 at 5:17

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