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Today personal_cloud posted several questions about the shooting this week of a US citizen by an ICE agent.

Moderator Jen closed the first one, and edited the second one to be a general hypothetical. The OP then wrote the remaining ones in the same style as the result of Jen's editing.

These questions aren't asking for personal legal advice -- personal_cloud is not the shooter, just someone who is curious about how this particular case is likely to be adjudicated.

I'm not sure that genericizing it is very useful, because cases like this are extremely fact-dependent.

It may be that it's not productive either way. Discussing the law in general will just result in references to "reasonable person" expectations, while trying to discuss the specific incident will be highly speculative because we don't have the results of investigations or testimony as to the shooter's actual state of mind.

So should they be posted specifically about the actual incident, generically about a hypothetical similar incident, or not at all?

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  • Comments have been moved to chat; please do not continue the discussion here. Before posting a comment below this one, please review the purposes of comments. Comments that do not request clarification or suggest improvements usually belong as an answer, or in Law Chat. Comments continuing discussion may be removed. Commented Jan 16 at 20:46

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My sense is that Jen -- whose contributions are generally immeasurably beneficial -- has been faster than necessary in closing questions for these and similar reasons since becoming a moderator.

Given that moderators cannot vote to close, but can only instantly close, I think they should be much more judicious. In the absence of a need to close a question, I think the community would be better off if moderators were to initiate discussions about questions like this, rather than closing the question unilaterally and short-circuiting the discussion process.

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    I understand the instant effect of my close votes and try to be careful. When I close a question and see a path for improvement, I try to make clear the closure is temporary and make myself available to work to get the question reopened. Closure and discussion can both happen. Temporary closure avoids an answer coming in while a question is being improved. These are meant to be short-term. E.g. see this post timeline and edit history. But I hear you and will be careful. Commented Jan 11 at 5:31
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    Yes, I've noticed and appreciate the affirmative efforts to shepherd the questions to improvement. Part of my concern is that shutting a question down discourages engagement from new users (and others), with limited upside. Even if a question could be better, it is very often still susceptible to being answered helpfully. I'm not keeping track, but I suspect that quickly closing tends to discourage more useful Q&As than it encourages. Commented Jan 11 at 6:34
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    I'd also submit that being overly stringent in enforcing the needs-more-focus rule leads to problems like this. I suspect that the user would probably be satisfied with a single answer examining how MN self-defense law applies to this scenario, but closing with a requirement to focus on a single question invites exactly what we've seen here, which feels a bit like malicious compliance, making it both funny and annoying. Commented Jan 11 at 6:50
  • Yes, I agree the question author could have just edited to make the scenario more clear with a plain list of facts. I tried to suggest that approach to them, but I confused things by also presenting them an option of narrowing the question. Commented Jan 11 at 11:53
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The initial closure was to invite either a clearer and concise specification of facts; or a trimming to a focused legal question

The question was not closed to necessarily invite a flurry of bite-sized questions about the elements of self-defence law. The hope was that the initial question be edited. If you see the comments, they say:

Instead of making this about the real circumstance, which invites improper fact-finding instead of a focus on the law, please state/stipulate a concrete set of facts that one is to assume for the sake of the analysis and then ask how the law of self-defence applies. Also, this question is improperly asserting too much about what the law is. Questions should ask, not tell. Let the assertions about what the law is come out in an answer. I will close temporarily to let you edit to trim to a concrete set of facts. I have chosen the "needs more focus" reason, but this comment explains.

It is not helpful to have your analysis in the question. If you have a view of the answer, you can self-answer. But keep the question simple. How to ask a good question

For example, are you just asking "if a person has 'no purpose to firing the gun', but nonetheless fires it and kills someone, is a self-defence defence available?" If so, you could ask a question that simply and directly. It would be a great improvement.

Note the final comment says, "If so,..." If the asker was just asking that, I suggested they edit to simply ask that.

If instead, they wanted to know how an analysis of self-defence would apply in a certain set of facts, they could have edited the question to state that set of facts and then ask (as the first comment said was available to them.)

Regardless, there is nothing wrong per se with a set of standalone focused questions about a specific area of law

Focused questions are usually best, and this sometimes results in multiple questions. But, this is a small site, with relatively low question rate. Consider whether a bunch of questions in short succession by one user about one specific topic might "annoy" (for lack of better term) the community. I have observed this once in the past for questions about UK tenancy law. I personally do not see any issue, and think that more questions is better. It's not like we can't handle them all, and it isn't every day this happens. But I'm just one voter out there.

In this case, each question happened to touch on a different aspect of the self-defence analysis (at least under the Canadian approach). In other cases, the question author might inadvertently ask a duplicate, which is okay — we would just close to point to the Q&A that answers the question.

Questions can be about a specific incident, but they need to tell us what to assume about the incident

The question can be about a specific incident, but we aren't fact finders. The question author needs to tell us what facts we are to assume for the purpose of the question, and it should not tell us a bunch about what the law is, nor present its own analysis of what the answer might be.

There is no need to follow a formula, but here's an approach that is clear and avoids any ambiguity about what the question author is guessing, what they're asking us to find ourselves, etc.

Assume the following facts:

  • A person / law enforcement officer / etc. is [in some relation to a vehicle]
  • The driver does X
  • The person / law enforcement officer / etc. does Y
  • etc.

[Ask the question.]

Note that in the above, the facts are not interspersed with any assertions about what the law is.

The genericization stripped away what was irrelevant; it was not for the sake of genericizing

Regarding this question, the "genericization" (as you call it) stripped away parts of the question text that did not make their way into the facts that the question author said we should assume. The fact that the question author wanted us to assume was that there was "no legitimate purpose." Given that asserted fact, the rest didn't add anything. If there were further facts that were important, they could have been added.

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  • Re: Questions can be about a specific incident, but they need to tell us what to assume about the incident. IMO my initial version was pretty specific about what I had been assuming about the ICE shooting. The question was to either take those assumptions, or challenge them according to known facts, to somehow find a sliver of legal hope for the ICE agent. Or to find such a thing unlikely. Commented Jan 10 at 19:51
  • Re: the "genericization" (as you call it) stripped away parts of the question text that did not make their way into the facts that the question author said we should assume. Yes, but your edits also removed all references to the ICE shooting, an aspect that Barmar seems to object to. Commented Jan 10 at 19:53
  • Yes - but the fact that it was an ICE agent didn't seem to enter into your question. If that was relevant, that wasn't clear to me - I truly thought I was capturing the essence of what you had asked. I would not object to you adding "assume the shooter was an ICE agent." Commented Jan 10 at 19:57
  • Re: it was an ICE agent didn't seem to enter into your question. If that was relevant, that wasn't clear to me Yes, you are correct that your edit captured the essence of what I was asking (or one part of it). Barmar is claiming that the fact that an ICE agent is involved might affect the application to the ICE shooting case. (He hasn't said why, but I get his point that a case like this has to be looked at in totality. Which means including all details, including ones I didn't think were relevant when I asked the question.) Commented Jan 10 at 20:01
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I don't think the first question should have been closed as it is a reasonable question for a layman to ask. Which is who this site is for - laymen, not lawyers. Instead, a good answer would have addressed the concept of self-defense, the components required for it to be a viable defense strategy, and potentially a survey of previous officer involved shootings with similar circumstances where the officers were convicted or acquitted. God knows there are more than enough of the latter in the US.

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I will concede that I changed my opinion on this issue. Obviously, when I first wrote the question, I felt like it would all fit in one question. However, after some refinement and community discussion, I decided to split the question, for a number of reasons:

  • After filling in some details (that I think are important to highlight issues) I realized that it was quite a long and complex question.
  • It was closed with a needs more focus tag. Focus implies reduced scope per question. Therefore more questions needed to cover the original scope.
  • Jen's comment, Instead of making this about the real circumstance, which invites improper fact-finding instead of a focus on the law, please state/stipulate a concrete set of facts that one is to assume. It made sense to me, as the fact-finding is likely to be disputed/political.
  • My experience on StackExchange, where if you miss the slightest detail, then people immediately jump in and interpret it as a watered-down question, and then the question can't be fixed because there's already answers, and the people who wrote them complain that you've changed the question. Which is all fair game given how the platform works technically. So splitting the question makes the situation more manageable by reducing the amount of noise when a question is replaced by a new question. (Imagine having to submit new versions of the original question every time we find a scoping problem. It would be so much messier.)

Having said that, splitting the question seems to have resulted in many of the new questions being closed as duplicates. Which is perplexing because the new questions are clearly restricted to different scopes, and their respective answers are reflecting this.

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